Is reincarnation time linear?

Discussion in 'Buddhism' started by cataclysmic cognition, Dec 20, 2008.

  1. cataclysmic cognition

    cataclysmic cognition Member

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    If you die and you would be reincarnated based on the karmic level you have achieved but what if that level does not exist in the time after your death? Could you be reincarnated into the past?
     
  2. moondaddy

    moondaddy Member

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    Well maybe to another planet or universe which is running behind us but similar.
     
  3. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Don't take the concept of reincarnation to literally.
     
  4. xexon

    xexon Destroyer Of Worlds

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    It's only a concept to those who have no conscious experience of it.

    Time, is a purely human thing. It is karma that determines when reincarnation takes place. Time is applied afterward, like sitting a needle down on a record that's already spinning.



    x
     
  5. liquidlight

    liquidlight Senior Member

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    My hypothetical question is this; Who is reincarnating? ... because as i understand it i am not an individual .. i most often think i am but i know i am not so how can i as a separate entity reincarnate? It makes no sense. However i can totally understand that life incarnates, so to speak. To me, individuals reincarnating implies an individual 'soul' or entity, yet i know in truth i am no individual.
    I was watching a satsang with Mooji clip on utube recently and he said at one point "This is my last lifetime." and for me it begged the question "Who are YOU that this is your last lifetime ... and for that matter when was your first lifetime?"

    To me also, reincarnation is a concept.

    So tell me xexon ... what happened? What was it like?
     
  6. cataclysmic cognition

    cataclysmic cognition Member

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    well i can't say i do take it literally for i'm not convinced that its real. i just want to have a further understanding of how it supposedly works.
     
  7. Bonsai Ent

    Bonsai Ent Member

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    I've no idea.
    Who you were and who you will be are less useful questions than "who are you?"

    We could speculate about the afterlife (and whether or not it is metaphorical) till the cows come home, but there is nothing to gain by it spiritually.


    Edit:
    Buddha taught the concept of Rebirth (as opposed to reincarnation, if we want to be technical) as a facet of samsara. I.E: it was something to escape.

    As a result, most Buddhist schools and teachers tend not to put much empathise on it as a concept, the end result being, I doubt there are many living Buddhists who could authoritively answer your question
     
  8. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    We have addressed this subject before in various threads, two of which I have included at the addresses below.
    http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=165878&highlight=reincarnation
    http://www.hipforums.com/forums/show...=163917&page=1
    I copied and pasted my explanation from these two threads.
    Buckle up its a long ride....

    Let me start with a section from The Buddhism of Tibet by The Dalai Lama. I’m going to paraphrase some to save typing.

    Body and mind have direct causes. The direct cause of the body is the father’s semen and the mother’s blood. The direct cause of the mind is…let me quote this,
    I think this means that a new mind is brought into existence that is similar to a mind that continues from a previous life and it is linked to the previous mind at conception.
    He continues,
    So, mind can only come from mind.
    But what is the continuation of mind? How can their be a continuation of this mind if there is no permanent entity (be it self soul or whatever)? What is it continuing? You answer mind. But what is mind? So how can 'it' be continued?

    For the moment let's just assume that an entity called the self, or mind, exists in some form or another, as we see evidence of it. There is me and there is you. What the nature of this self is, is another matter and will side track us away from the issue of it possibly being re-incarnated.

    So, let me switch to Sleeping, Dreaming, and Dying, An Exploration of Consciousness with The Dalai Lama, and see if any of these questions are addressed. In Tibetan Buddhism, there are latent propensities, or imprints called bag chags, pronounced bakchak. (I am paraphrasing again)These are stored in the mind and result from previous behavior and experiences and can come from previous lives. Bhavaviveka, an Indian Buddhist philosoper, states that a calf knows where to suckle milk as a result of knowledge from propensities carried over from previous lives. Buddhism considers this to be primarily a mental propensity as opposed to physiological in nature.
    However, some propensities are biological. For example humans exist in the realm of desire, due to the body, and so desire and attachment are the predominant impulses and would be considered biological.
    In addition, physical constitution plays a part. Deep tantric practice transforms the mind, but also at a subtle level, the body. If one’s parents had transformed their bodies in this way, the genetic information would be handed down to you.
    Moreover, the external environment of the individual is a product of collective karma. The existence of a flower is influenced by the beings in its environment. But the color of the flower, etc. is due to natural law and biology.
    The calf's knowing where to go for milk is due to mental karma, but also other influences.

    We are now going to investigate the aspects of the mental bakchaks.

    The Abhidharma is a category of Buddhist scriptures that attempts to describe worldly phenomena. Some of these scriptures are said to be direct teachings of the Buddha while others were developed later.
    Within these scriptures is the concept of Alayavijnana or storehouse or foundation consciousness.
    In the Yogacara school, consciousness is one of the five Skandhas and is divided into three layers, the Citta, Manas, and Vijnana. Manas is thinking, reasoning, etc and Vijana is the reaction to input from the sense organs.
    Citta is Alayavijnana. It is the repository of all of the imprints, habits, and propensities from this and all former lives. It is the ground from which all manifestations and experiences seem to arise. It can contain objects but cannot ascertain them, and so, is morally neutral. It is always present and comprises the personality of the individual.
    The foundation consciousnesses is a continuum from beginning less time and carries consciousness through successive lifetimes.

    Of course the Dalai Lama sez this is all baloney.
    Notice I didn't say that the Dali Lama doesn't believe in re-incarnation, just that he doesn't agree with the concept of a foundation consciousness.
    I don't buy the subtle thread as, it seems to me, nowhere is this subtle thread explained nor how it is connected from life to life.

    I'll add some of my own thoughts here that I have been piecing together from different sources...
    Consciousness is awareness. It is pure energy. For energy to manifest as consciousness it must come into contact with at least one of the six senses.
    When an object comes into contact with the eye, the image is transferred to the brain as energy. This energy is converted in the brain to consciousness of what is seen; and the self arises as what sees. The self then scans past experiences and identifies the object. After identification a feeling is generated based on the identification. From the feeling, volition arises and the body is moved to act. The event is then stored as memory.
    Then self then dissipates, as there is nothing to generate it until the next moment of awareness.
    This is one cycle. This cycle is repeated each time a sense organ meets an object.
    Each cycle lasts about 50 milliseconds as the energy packet is delivered, is interrupted, and then a new cycle begins. This means that the self is not a continuum. There are different selves generated with each cycle that then passes away.
    The illusion of a permanent self is due to the retention of nerve impulses by memory. The illusion holds until the person can step outside and observe the process. Then the persona dies and only the perception exists.
    Having said that, there must be a connection between each cycle for the continuity of the organism that experiences the self. The self is a product of memory, but the brain that houses the memory must also maintain itself in the ever changing flux of Ultimate Energy.
    During this interval between cycles, when the self dissipates, there is no time for the self, it is non-temporal. Time does not exist, the only time that exists is when the self exists.
    So what carries the self from moment to moment? I would think, the brain and it's memory. The body continues to exist due to the environmental karma that suurounds it. We are maintained by each other.
    So, we know the self, and personality, is an illusion perpetuated by memory. We can tell by the fact that when a person has no memory, there is no self. And we know the self is an illusion.

    Now, the question is, can the illusion of the self migrate from one body to another? (Re-incarnation)
    I am thinking it can and I'm thinking that it is an A-temporal transference, it happens outside of time.
    I suspect the transference happens in the environmental karma that surrounds the individual.
    It seems all accounts of re-incarnation, that I can think of, involve the re-incarnated individual re-cognizing, places, objects, people; all environmental factors from a previous life.

    Mind in this context is a term used to identify the Ultimate Which Has No Name and can not be described by words.

    This use of the word Mind does not mean that Mind is a thing. Ultimate Mind is not a thing, nor a non-thing, therefore, there is nothing to arise.

    In addition, for mind to arise we would have to postulate a before arising, a continuation, and a discontinuation of mind. But since there can be no arising without a continuation, and no continuation without a discontinuation; we see that all three times are really different aspects of the same concept and cannot exist on their own.
    If they cannot exist on their own, there can be no separate arising.
    So, there is no Mind to arise and no time frame for it to arise in.
    Now, the question is, can the illusion of the self migrate from one body to another? (Re-incarnation)
    I am thinking it can and I'm thinking that it is an A-temporal transference, it happens outside of time.
    I suspect the transference happens in the environmental karma that surrounds the individual.
    It seems all accounts of re-incarnation, that I can think of, involve the re-incarnated individual re-cognizing, places, objects, people; all environmental factors from a previous life.
    Briefly, since everything is energy and all energy is one, everything is everything all at the same time...or rather outside of time as time is part of the general energy pattern.
    So a pattern, or wave, is set up in the general energy field and it represents the individual ego, or an ego pattern, based upon the karma, or action that defines it. Now since this pattern exists as an energy wave, and the wave is contained in the general energy field, it can continue to exist after the death of the body that originally set it into motion as a harmonic induced in the general field of matter which is itself only a different vibration of the same energy field which comprises the body, ego, matter, time, etc.
    This harmonic karmic wave can then be "picked up" by another body, which itself is only a form of energy, and it can induce certain actions, or karma in that body by the principles of harmonics!
    ..because, if I understand wave theory correctly, there is no transference of matter as a wave propagates..
    So there is no need for a soul, ego, self, or whatever to transfer from one body to another….only the past action of the illusionary self is passed on in wave form and picked up by another body that it resonates with.
    Let me rephrase that...
    There is a self, but it is an illusion.
    Since the self is an illusion there is nothing to pass on except the illusion.

    Of course this is all at one certain level....
     
  9. Bonsai Ent

    Bonsai Ent Member

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    My understanding of Rebirth:

    It's a bit like inheriting your siblings old clothes or your parents eye-colour

    People ask how they can be reborn if there is no self,
    I would answer how could they reborn if there is a self?

    "If the ego was an enduring entity, it could not obtain Nirvana"
    -- Heart Sutra

    All transient things are broken and reborn constantly, it is a facet of the nature of impermenance, it is the way of things, it is not abstract or complex.

    You need only know that you are not your past lives, or your future ones.
    This is where Rebirth differs from the Hindu/Sikh/Jain concepts of Reincarnation
     
  10. xexon

    xexon Destroyer Of Worlds

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    I'd have to give you the same answer Buddha would give when asked certain questions that depend upon individual observation.



    x
     
  11. darrellkitchen

    darrellkitchen Lifetime Supporter

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    Meagain was right ... "Don't take the concept of reincarnation too literally". Unfortunately, This: "It's only a concept to those who have no conscious experience of it," missed the mark ... completely!

    Consciousness, as well as the experience of consciousness are all based on concepts, imply conception, are founded in conception, and are the results of conception.

    Kamma has no particular level from which to base experience. Consciousness, according to Buddhist teaching, is a direct result of continuous mental activity. That without mental activity consciousness would never arise. That mental activity is a direct result of continuous perception. That perception is a direct result of continuous feelings. And, that feelings are a direct result of continuous "contact" with forms. Contact with forms is a result of kamma motivated by desire, hatred and/or ignorance.

    Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking ... all results of kamma, and has as its result the perpetuation of kamma. Kamma can only cease when one eliminates the factors for its perpetuation, namely greed (desire, pleasure,...), ill-will (impatience, anger, hatred,...), and delusion (ignorance, stupidity,...). When action ceases, kamma ceases. With the cessation of kamma, consciousness itself ceases, mental activity ceases, perception ceases, feeling ceases, contact with form ceases.

    This is the truest form of "no conscious experience". In which case, once conscious experience ceases, consequentially, so does concept and conceptual thinking. The emergence of ideation, conscious experience, is the emergence of concept, and becomes the result, as well as the perpetuation of concept.

    Time, reincarnation, kamma, consciousness, mental activity, perception, feelings, contact with forms ... they are all the same thing. It is through labeling, naming, identifying continuous moment-to-moment experiences that we have separated this sameness in order to perpetuate self-identification ... identifying self with experience.

    So ... one does not ACHIEVE any particular level of Kamma. When one acts (mentally, verbally, or physically) out of greed, greed is the result. When one acts out of ill-will, ill-will is the result. When one acts out of delusion, delusion is the result. There is no LEVEL of greed, no LEVEL of ill-will, and no LEVEL of delusion. There is, however, a greater accumulation of either/or/and ...

    Time, space, consciousness ... rebirth ... reincarnation ... cyclic existence ... the all ... different words ... same experience.



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  12. darrellkitchen

    darrellkitchen Lifetime Supporter

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    If this was the Buddha's answer, then this reply would be accurate.

    When "asked certain questions" the Buddha never replied ... period ...

    However, if when "asked certain questions" the Buddha replied, "depending upon individual observation, this is my reply", and kept silent, then the above reply would be quite accurate and in accordance with the reply the Buddha would have given.

    I think that if the original poster has simply posted a blank response, with perhaps the sig and nothing more, that also would have been an accurate reply.



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  13. stalk

    stalk Banned

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    40 days.
     
  14. cataclysmic cognition

    cataclysmic cognition Member

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    40 days for what?
     
  15. Chodpa

    Chodpa Senior Member

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    You, who you feel yourself to be enters the womb of Creation by propensity. thus one is born nonlinearly into whatever situation can benefit one.
     
  16. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    The problem I have here is this: if consciousness is purely the result of mental acivity and conception, how can it operate in the animal who has no conceptual mind? Animals, I assume, have perceptions which are decoded by their brains somewhat differently than in the case of the human being. But it would seem clear enough that to say that the consciousness of a fish is a result of mental activity and conceptualization would be highly improbable.
     
  17. darrellkitchen

    darrellkitchen Lifetime Supporter

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    And you know this through personal experience that animals have no conceptual mind?



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  18. famewalk

    famewalk Banned

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    And the trouble is: we as humans only believe towards the future, and delude ourselves about the past.

    I believe that animals react to the future, and fear the consequences of the past.

    Generally, guilt is instead a human invention.

    Therefore (I'm on a role): before man there was no guilt even for animals.
     
  19. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    And you know that they do?
     
  20. darrellkitchen

    darrellkitchen Lifetime Supporter

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    Yes, I do!



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