native americans back in the day went to hell?

I believe they are lost and without excuse. See Rom. 1:18-25. You might also want to read Eternity in Their Hearts by Don Richardson, a fascinating overview of the ways in which the "seeds" of the basic gospel message have been sown in all sorts of pagan cultures.

 

I don't think you understood me. I never excluded Old Testament Jews (or Gentiles) from salvation. I said that the only way to salvation (BC or AD) is to trust in God and turn to him for mercy. There are no "innocent, good people" who can earn God's favor.

 

Interesting concept here...

Indeed people have been finding god throughout time, the world round.(certainly before the gospel)

As far as forgiveness-
If you study human mythology you will recognize a common theme, or archetype, that permeates through many different cultures.

In Christianity, humans are tainted because we fell from the garden of eden.

In some pagan religions, humans came into this world by climbing up a rope that extended out from inside the earth. At one point, the rope broke, leaving those on earth stranded --having lost direct connection with the divine.

Same idea.

Most mythology defines humans in terms of our alienation from the transcendent, and consequently our residence in the realm of duality.

However, it is through good works, studying, and communing with god we draw nearer to his presence; and learn not to root our identities in the past but instead view ourselves as having progressed into a spiritual form of being.

Thus the comforting envelopment can be perceived as god's forgiveness. And we are guided by this light inside, for when we stray from it, we seek it out once again. Holy spirit?

 

So then I guess the question at that point would be:

Are pagan religions watered down versions of christianity's truth?

OR

Is christianity (like the pagan religions) just one more expression of a much deeper truth about humanity?

 

Well, pagan religions have been around longer than the more established religions --Christianity, Judaism, and Islam-- as paganism preceeds civilization.

Indeed, all religions are an expression of a deeper truth about humanity.

Every religion is true one way or another. They are true when understood metaphorically. But when the metaphors become interpreted as facts, the common ground between religions is lost and the big picture dissipates.

 

This is antithetical to the Christian gospel, which teaches that we are reconciled to God by acknowledging our hopelessly sinful condition and trusting in the atoning death of Christ on our behalf.

The Holy Spirit convicts us of (1) our sin and (2) the objectively revealed truth of God's word recorded in Scripture. The primary work of the Holy Spirit in the Christian life is to transform our inner being by bringing his word to life within us.

 

Oh no, pagan religions also define humans in terms of our alienation from the transcendent (parallel to the fall from Eden).

What I was trying to get across, perhaps not clearly enough, was that your personal past -on an individual level- leading up to spiritual re-birth is hardly needed. Old habits need to be left behind with the old mind. A new frame of being is to be entered and sustained.

So what if one is not familiar with the gospel but, instead, is convicted of their sin and spiritually transformed through the means of, say, Buddha?

 

To my knowledge, Buddha didn't even believe in God, so I don't know how this would be possible. Any revelation from the Holy Spirit must conform to the truth of the gospel. It might not encompass the entire gospel message, but it cannot conflict with it.

If you have a multimedia system, you might be interested in this sermon by a pastor friend of mine. He recounts the story of his plan to write a paper in college, arguing that Buddha revealed a lesser version of the gospel of Christ. His professor told him not to bother, because Buddha's teaching was incompatible with Christianity:

http://www.communityefc.org/cgi-bin/download.cgi?download=1999/CEFC_1999092600_16kbps_mono.mp3

 

Damned straight!! Them and all the others!!! *SHAKES FIST AT HEATHENS*

 

Well, I listened to your friend's sermon, and took notes. Some points I would like to bring up:

- Proof of the gospel's sole righteous authority is it's effect on lives, says Paul.

The purpose of religion in general is to effect lives in a positive way. The gospel does not have a monopoly here...

- Man would never make up a religion where he considers himself inherently unworthy of salvation.

I can think of a perfect reason why man would make up such a religion; to control other men. Sheep. The sheppard being he who interprets and preaches the message more so than Jesus, as Christianity's multitude of denominations demonstrates to us.
Dependence, fear, conformity.

- Your friend presents an analogy through which he claims that all religions, except Christianity, are paths attempting to reach the top of a mountain. These paths will never get there, he says. He then claims that Christianity, the exception, is equivalent to a bulldozer that god has driven down from the top of the mountain, to the people of the world. He says that this is the case of god revealing himself to man, not man trying to find god. We are 'dependent upon revelation', he says.

Is there not a verse in the bible, 'Knock and the door shall be opened unto you, seek and ye shall find'? Talk about antithetical...

There is an author of a New York Times #1 bestselling book, I believe his name is Eckhart Tolle, titled The Power of Now. This man professes no religion, but he has sold millions of copies of a book on spirituality. Tolle was depressed and suicidal throughout most of his life. One particularly grim night, however, Tolle caught himself in the thought, 'I cannot live with myself anymore', upon which a grand revelation followed. Tolle realized that his (painful) personal identity was a figment of his mind, and that his inner spirit --god, connected to all things-- ,which spoke to him, was his true identity.

So 'god must reveal himself'... Well, how about what first turned me on to spirituality? Nature. Hikes through the mountains. God is everywhere -as the bible teaches- so he reveals himself in a variety of ways and places.

I know a girl that used to be a stripper. Now her life is on an entirely different track and she is deeply spiritual. What changed her? Music. The tunes of a simple hired band playing in a stripclub inspired her to re-discover herself and find a new life. God is everywhere indeed, even stripclubs.

- The gospel is not a worldview.

Evangelism is indeed a worldview my friend...

What I want to know is:
Why must we focus on, and teach, religious differences?
Isn't the world divided enough as it is?
...and christianity claims to be unique...
'God's chosen word'. What religion doesn't claim such?

How about we really be unique and try to bring oppositions together instead?

 

Are you saying that the Apostles themselves distorted Jesus' message in a quest for power? This seems absurd, when you consider what happened to them.

Yes, Jesus said this, but he also said that he himself was the door.

He discovered that his true identity was God? That sounds more like delusion than revelation.

Nature, music, etc. are examples of what I referred to earlier as general revelation. While important, it is not a substitute for the special revelation of God's spoken word.

Truth, by its very nature, is exclusive. Contradictory claims about the nature of God and the way of salvation cannot be reconciled. Jesus made some very bold and exclusive claims about himself that must either be embraced or rejected. If you choose another path, you are essentially calling him a liar. You need be honest about this, instead of trying to fit him into some sort of pluralistic pantheon.

 

No, I am saying that it is not Jesus who is shepparding the flock when the meanings of his words are narrowly interpreted by teachers. Jesus is the source, not the mouth of the preacher.

We sit here and tell each other 'you must surrender to god, not seek him out' when this is really only two different ways of explaining the same thing.

Is the glass half empty or half full? Same situation, different explanations.

And don't you see what getting caught up in the interpretive differences does? It alienates us from each other. It gives us the inclination to frown upon our brothers. It has caused great wars! Is this what Jesus was trying to accomplish?
Jesus says "Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your father in heaven... If you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others?"

Matthew 7:7-8 "Ask and it will be given unto you; seek and ye shall find; knock and the door will be opened unto you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."
...beautiful

Also, in 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of god."

He discovered the god within himself. The idea is that god is everywhere, in all things. Potential exists in all places. From this point it’s only a matter of realization. 'General revelation' you may say.

"He who seeks, finds."

How are we to judge, to quantify and qualify, the revelations of others?
We cannot!

Different claims about the nature of god and the way of salvation don’t have to be perceived as contradictory. You can think of them as two views of the same thing.

Perhaps you need to be honest about what Jesus’s intentions for his followers were.

When Jesus says, "Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your father in heaven", he’s not asking you to convince god to be merciful; he’s asking you to be humble, non-judgmental, and NOT telling of others -that their path to god is no substitute for yours.

Jesus says that judgement belongs to god, not to man.
Do you think he wants his followers to spread the light by openly condemning others?

Matthew 5:13, Jesus says, "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt losses it’s saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men." ...powerful...

 

Your selective quotation (and skewed reading) of Bible verses tells me that you're not seriously interested in understanding biblical teaching. I could cite numerous passages that you've conveniently ignored, but I seriously doubt that such an exercise would be very productive.

 

Oh, but I am seriously interested. Just because I don't necessarily agree with you doesn't mean that this is a joke to me...

If you would directly respond to my last post I would appreciate it.

 

well i cant be bothered reading these last 4pages..

simple truth, the puritans that migrated and "founded" america destroyed the native americans lifestyle

 

Buddha taught that we shouldn't waste time trying to know God, cuz we cant, so instead we should just try to help each other out.

I would not be at all shocked to learn that Yeshua Ben Joseph spent some of those missing 17 yrs. studying Buddhism.

 

Thats really stupid. How is that in any way possible to consider as being good?
Maybe if evil is your religion, then that could be your God. My belief is that people who believe in murder for its own sake do not belong here.

What made you post this, Karl? Your other posts are far more astute.

 

OK, I'll give this a shot.

I think these words of Jesus (and his chosen Apostles) are pretty straightforward:

Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Mt. 28:18-20)

"The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me." (Lk. 10:16)

"He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. What He has seen and heard, of that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true. For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (Jn. 3:31-36)

For this reason [healing on the Sabbath] therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (Jn. 5:18-24)

"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (Jn. 6:27-29)

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple. (Jn. 8:56-59)

So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly." (Jn. 10:7-10)

Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me." (Jn. 12:44-50)

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (Jn. 14:6)

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." (Jn. 15:1-6)

Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." (Jn. 17:1-5)

"He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone. And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:11-12)

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn. 5:12)

I never said we shouldn't seek God. I'm saying that we seek him by surrending to his revealed truth, not by following our own intuition.

"Half empty" and "half full" are not mutually exclusive.

Love does not preclude seeking or speaking truth. Jesus was killed for daring to speak truth without compromise.

According to the passages I cited above, anyone who genuinely seeks truth will believe in Jesus.

Again, peace cannot come at the expense of truth.

"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law." (Lk. 12:49-53)

Jesus never told anyone to look for God within; rather, he told them to look to him. Nor did he claim to have "discovered the god within himself." He claimed to have come into the world to reveal God to mankind.

Jesus thought that spiritual discernment was very important. (See Mt. 7:15 & 10:16.)

Theism and pantheism are incompatible.

No. He's saying to extend God's grace toward all people. He obviously didn't shy away from controversy, or he would've lived to a ripe old age.

Yes, we are to leave judgment to God, but we are also to warn others of it.

Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Lk. 13:1-5)

Except that Jesus' whole ministry was devoted to making God known!