Protest against Israeli invasion into Gaza. Saturday 10th January

Will probs write a longer statement later once ive warmed up... but I think the focus of the March today was (quite rightly) very much in favour of saving the innocent civilians of Gaza and was quite anti war in general..

 

Yeah with enough of an anti israeli flavour to make you realise just how stupid people are
They cant get hamass to stop so they think israel is the best target for their wrath well screw hamass and all those who are hell bent on hiding behind innocent civillians while an opposing army shoots at them

 

I suppose replying to this in any meaningful way would be a bit like trying to teach an ape how to solve crossword puzzles,

A waste of both our time.

 

For starters, I wouldn't deal with it by killing non-combatants, and radicalising hundreds of future generations against me, the logic of the current assault would be analagous to say, Britain invading somewhere like Wales because we disagree with something France did.
The fundamental point your missing is that this kind of violence from Israel isn't a solution to the problem, has no bearing on the solution, and is wildly disproportionate, slaughtering hundreds of people that cannot defend themselves and are uninvolved.

The idea that if you oppose this invasion you are somehow supporting hamas is a false dichtomy

Again, not by killing someone that wasn't firing missles at me.

You actually just invented a bit of history there. We didn't "educate" them at all, we bombed them into nothing, divided up their country between the winners, leaving half of them in the economic deprivaion of the east, and proceeded to use them as pawns in the cold war.
And in the process of beating Hitler militarily we empowered one of the most Brutal and dangerous powers the world has ever known, our allies the USSR.
Who I might add, we did finally defeated economically (read: peacefully) not through war.

Your point is non-sequitur, no one is suggesting we allow Hamas to destroy Israel, we are suggesting that the current slaughter of Gazans is wrong.

Our yeah we can just march to the Palestinian embassy and... oh wait.

Hamas can't be prosecuted as war criminals because (unlike Israel) they haven't really broken international law.
A country under occupation is guaranteed the right to use force against its occupier.

And the fact that you think this is a war is just absurd. A war takes place between two people, equally capable of fighting.
This is not a war, it is a massacre, with the primary casualties being non-combatants (a war crime, in fact)

From the BBC:

"Health officials in Gaza say more than 800 Palestinians have died. Israel says 13 Israelis have been killed. "

800 to 13 is not war.

Israel has a powerful army and is a nuclear power. The idea that they need to invade Gaza to prevent Hamas defeating them militarily is a joke

 

errrr did you actually read my original post... you know, the one on page 1... *sighs*

 

Whoopee do, lets smash up Starbucks, or maybe even glue their locks that'll teach them Israelies, or even lets hurl missiles at the police because after all they are responsible for the conflict.

We all know the outcome of these events perhaps its time for people to stop being so naeive, massive civil disobedience might change something but these things are so commonplace and inconsequencial that they are almost a parody of themselves and will do absolutely nothing to the policies of Israel or for that matter Palestine.

Sure it helps the kids think they're doing something and gets them out of their bedsits but to have the adults cheer them on is a little naff, "You go for it, I'll hold your coat".

Anti war demos do SFA other than give students a chat up line.

 

Well you've certainly convinced me that it's not worthwhile to voice concerns over the atrocities comitted by military powers

What an absurd, pointless and curmudgeonly post, even for you...

 

Even the police were quick to point out that the starbucks incident and limited violence were an exception to the norm commited by a tiny minority, using it to sum up the spirit of the protest is inane.

As to the rest,

I would rather fail doing the right thing, than succeed doing the wrong thing.

The only people lower than all of those are those that do nothing at all.

 

Parading oneself through the streets of London is worse than nothing because you are costing the taxpayer a load of money to have the police come out and line the streets so that thugs and hooligans cant loot and pillage under the cover of your demonstration which you know will achieve nothing, that is irresponsible.

Now if you have something serious to demonstrate about other than a fluffy heart I might agree with its worth.

Every army freedom or governmental is bad per se, I don't understand the need to walk the street to tell people, see I'm sure they already agree, If they dont wearing out shoe leather wont change a mind.

sorry for curmudgeonlyness I have a difficulty expressing my thoughts in the friendly manner

 

You say "taxpayer" as though I'm not one.
But frankly. we waste a lot more money, on a lot worse things, and I have no problem with putting a fractional cost upon apathists.
If the government was doing it's job properly, there would be no need to protest.

There was no looting of which I was aware, the sole damage was done by a tiny minority, and quickly dealt with, it probably costs the police no more than a normal Saturday night in a city-center.

small london scuffles seem less consequential in my eyes than the murder being committed by Israel.
I weighed the two up and made a judgement call.
I think doing nothing but protesting every weekend is fairly unproductive, but the singular large events like this one I think are easily justifiable.

Though I would like to see it backed by more direct action, such as in South Africa where union members refused to unload ships containing weapons bound for Zimbabwe.

The personal cost to you and I of this protest would have been less than a penny... and you call my complaints (murdered civilians, dead children) inconsequential?

Hmm..

Though it seems in your statement you've already admitted that protest IS a worthwhile activity so long as the cause is right.
Which would be a personal judgement.
OK, you think it's a "fluffy" cause (I'm the same about a lot of dog and cat charities), but I don't, which is why I protested.
I'm not seeing the problem dude.

Because (for better or worse) we live in a democracy, largely governed by PR and media, and if we can exert even a small influence on that, I think it is worthwhile.

curmudgeonlyness not an issue, I prefer it.
I'm not that great at obsequious manner currently popular in debate

 

there is a bias against isreal if you look at the groups that pink moon said were supporting this protest I dont see any demonstrations against hamas and if there are any their not to the degree of the media blitz against isreal .

Ive been to anti war marches and talked to people from solidarity for palastine ect ect .
I think your idea of who is uninvolved is rather childish the intifada contains many children.....below are clips from Palestinian TV where children are dressed in combat uniforms or as suicide bombers , I actually saw kids dressed like suicide bombers at the first peace march I went to in the uk , two children were carrying al asqa martryes battalions signs this was in london one child was walking the other in a pushchair.

also you do not understand jihad a form of warfare thats been happening for the last 1400 years , from a islamic point of view you have a duty to reconquer any area ruled by islam you can have short term peace but only to get into a better position to kill the other side you CAN NOT ever have a peace forever without islam ruling . you dont generally tell your opponant thats the game plan as thats not to your advantage

watch the links ive just posted to islam what the west needs to know

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=G0KB4lFP0EA

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nI9XzoDjmtw&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mjq5Vi9Gc68

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7FzwYdVLsYI&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pfovTPQxSg0&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FcCXbE20URM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RbSJHcUQp3s&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aOGPiaV1rTA&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=N5YdaNCvWEQ&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lV1DMGyzFOw&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn2tMHATGos&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PjWdoEUWyvw&feature=related

do some more research bonsai we had a programme of re-education the russians and americans took it further than the brits , people were fired from their jobs or only allowed to do certain type of work like manual labour , they had to attend classes and fill in forms all aimed at changing their beliefs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification

if you have a constant war going on for hundreds of years maybe thousands where your firing missles into a country its not going to make that much of a country people will want to live in , you could depopulate a country easy that way over time couldnt you . and are you going over to fight against hamas bonsai?

they could have anti hamas protests anywhere

it can be war war doesn't mean both sides need to have the same causality rates , how many Muslim nations surround Israel how many times has Israel been invaded or boycotted .

Israel is one of the few country's that as successfully re-conquered land conquered by jihadis , from a jihadi point of view it will always be important to reconquer it and if that happens they will see it as a great sign

 

It would be absurd to protest against Hamas, Hamas has no capability of waging meaningful war against Israel, has no political ties or embassies in the UK, and is already opposed wholesale by our political establishment and listed as a terrorist organisation.
A protest against Hamas would be mere tokenism. Who would be protesting too?

Yes, children are remarkably easy to manipulate, this doesn't make them military targets, and your point here is deceitful, because it suggests those children killed by Israel were combatants, which is not the case.
The UN school that was bombed was done so because they believed a mortar team was "in the same area" as the school.
Most of the children killed were not military targets at all but collateral damage, to claim otherwise is to misrepresent the situation

I've read the Qu'ran, "Jihad" means struggle and does not exclusively refer to warfare and is not directly centered around land-reclaimation but rather defense of the muslim community.
Modern Islamic-nationalist scholars add the current twists of doctrine to which you refer, but this does not embody Islam as a whole

Suggesting that it is ok to blow up civilians because of the religion they belong to is bigotry of the lowest order.

ok, conceded, but what exactly is your point?
That because we removed nazis from positions of power in the past it is ok to murder non-combatants?

Actually, the current level of casualties in Israel is trailing a very long way below the birth rate.
You don't strike me as being someone genuinely silly enough to believe that the Hamas rocket campaign currently being conducted could seriously overcome Israel.
And I'm not suggesting constant war, I'm not suggesting we don't resist hamas I'm suggesting we don't undertake the butcher of civilians under the silly delusion that we are solving the problem.
A terrorist organisation is not the same as an army, trying to engage it in a full-blown military assault is the highest absurdity.

And they would be just as meaningless, yes.

This has nothing to do with past wars or Israel's relations with Arab states.
It is about Israel, Hamas and Gaza.
the Gazans and Hamas are not seriously capable of waging war against Israel, this is why they use terrorism, the correct response to which is counter-terrorist activities. Launching full-scale war against them is nothing less than butchery.

Israel is a nuclear power, backed by the United States, and other Arab powers have been relatively silent in their support for Hamas. It is under no risk of being conquered by anyone, and I don't suggest that we allow it to be.

I'm all for dealing with Hamas. But doing so using wholesale slaughter of a populace is barbaric, and serves only to reinforce anti-semetic poison that is spread by neo-fascist sharia hardliners.

When all is said and done, claiming that protests against Israel are unfair, and that we should be giving equal time to protesting Hamas is akin to saying we should be giving the same time and money to treating common cold as we do to treating cancer.

 

Tell that to families of israelis killed by Hamas

 

TROLL DETECTED

*****IGNORE*******

 

Ok, bring one to me and I will.
Or was that just silly emotionally-charged rhetoric rather than an actual request?


Protesting Hamas is silly,
Britain already doesn't recognise Hamas, Britain already conducts economic sanctions against Hamas, Britain has already declared them a proscribed terrorist organisation, Britain already shares miltary intelligence with proscribed terrorist organisations with nations like Israel.

A protest would be meaningless.

Meanwhile we have exchanged ambassadors with Israel, conduct regular and lucrative trade and give them nothing more than mild verbal chiding when they, to take a random example, use banned phosphorus weapons against civilians.

What part of our diplomatic stance on Hamas would you change?
You think maybe our own soldiers should be down there killing civilians too?

 

Oh the irony

 

lol, you spotted that too eh?

To borrow a phrase from the bible,

"Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel"