christians and fundamentalism

By the way many people think that the troubles in Northern Ireland were caused by two sets of christian fundamentalists but they were quite wrong. The causes were actually nothing to do with religon and were fueled by poverty, unemployment and the legacy of British imperialism in Ireland. To be a Catholic or Protestant meant only to have been born in a Catholic or Protestant community, actual observance of the faith was not required to be considered one or the other.

Most Catholics were descendants of the original Irish (I say most as intermarriage and forced conversions over the centuries had meant not all Catholics were descendants of the original Irish and not all Protestant descendants of Scottish settlers). These people had lost land centuries ago to Scottish protestant settlers when the Ulster Plantation of the 1600s took place, designed by Britain to increase their grip on Ireland.

In recent decades Catholics in the north were discriminated against in jobs and houses by the Protestant dominated local councils and local Northern Irish government. Protestants made sure other Protestants got the best jobs and the bulk of council housing. The fueling of this discrimination was poverty. There was mass unemployment in Ulster and Protestants were trying to take all the best jobs for themselves. A fight over scarce resources.

This discrimination led to the Civil Rights Campaign in 1968 by the catholic community. This camaign was vigorously opposed by Protestants who didn't want to lose their position as top dogs. Extremists within the Protestant community attacked civil rights marches and sparked riots. The Cathloics responded with violence too. When the Official IRA refused to help defend them they formed the Provisional IRA whose policy was to force a united Ireland as that was the only way they could see of lifting themsleves out of discrimination and sectarian attacks.

The British army was originally sent in to protect Catholics from sectarian attacks by Protestants. But when the Provisonal IRA was formed they spent most of their time searching Catholic areas for amunition and bombs and harrasing the Catholic community. This greatly angered the Catholic community who then waged riots and guerrilla attacks on the army via the Provisional IRA, as well as attacks on Protestants who they saw as oppressors too. The Protestants inturn responded to attacks on them revamping the UDA into a mass membership and efficient fighting machine together with its offshoot the Ulster Freedom Fighters. The names Catholic and Protestant were little more than badges of difference. And that is a brief analaysis of the troubles in Ulster.

 

Uhhhhh.... you might wanna start a new thread there, dude. You practicing essay writing for college or something?

 

A quick reply.

I'm not saying everyone should enjoy sex within marriage, I'm saying I believe it is the best way to do it. I can also believe that something is a sin, but I have no right to judge anyone. There is a HUGE difference there (eg I have friends who live together with their partner, while I think it is not the best choise they are my friends and I love them dearly). Is it that hard to understand? People can do as they please, but I have every right to believe that I've found a road that eventually leads to the Truth. I'm not there yet, maybe I'll never get there, but I'll keep on walking. You blame Christians for being intolerant yet you yourself are saying very prejudiced things about us. I'm very willing to admit that atheists or anyone else who thinks differently can be right about things and that I can learn a lot from them, but you don't seem open to the possibility of Christians getting anything right.

Anyways, next week I won't be around any computers, so take care!

 

Well let's get this straight. Are you saying that god believes sex outside marriage to be a sin, or are you not?

Can't you see how there's a huge judgement inherent in this attitude though? Despite your friends having a healthy, loving relationshio, you still assert that it's not the best thing for them.

Rubbish. Prejudice is to "pre-judge". My opinions are based on much direct, personal contact with christians (of many varieties) and on an extensive historical and contemporary knowledge of the church. You're free to disagree with my opinions of course, but it's factually incorrect to refer to them as prejudice.

Furthermore, my criticism of christianity is based on tolerance. It's based on the belief that people should be free to live their lives as they wish, providing they don't harm anyone else. Christianity is all about telling people how they should lead their lives, and defining activities as sin and individuals as sinners. You can dress it up as fluffy as you like, but it still comes down to the same thing.

That's not entirely correct. There are many aspects of the christian faith that I respect. In fact, there are whole branches of the church that I have no problem with whatsoever. The church of england is in many ways fairly progressive these days. My problem is specifically with born-again fundies.

 

I think what the christians that have responded here fail to grasp is that by no means is anyone saying that christianity isn't right for them, but when you believe that your path is the right and only path for everyone that means that you are judging everyone by what you believe.

Spirituality is a very personal experience and by no means does anyone have the right to tell you that you are wrong, yet that doesn't make your experience right for everyone.

Personally, I find that most religions are very limiting within their own framework, promoting narrow-thought and boxed spirituality. There are many wonderful teachings from all of them (and generally they have the same message) but until you can learn to think and feel for yourself you'll never be spiritually free.

 

Another interesting thing is what do fundamentalist christians actually consider a valid marriage? Is it the ceremony or the signing of the marriage certificate that makes a marriage valid. Do marriages in registry offices count to the fundamentalist christian or does it have to be a church. What about marriages carried out in other religous buildings such as Mosques and Hindu temples? Do fundamentalist christians believe marriages by divorced people are valid?

 

Good point. Strictly speaking, only catholic ceremonies should be valid, since catholicism is the only religion that can claim apostolic succession.

 

Although many protestants would disagree as they do not believe that the Catholic Church stretches back to the original church set up by Jesus Christ. They claim it only goes back to Roman emporor Constantine or even less far back than that to Pope Gregory and that a lot of Catholic traditions such as praying to the Virgin Mary, belief in purgotry etc are not in the Bible and so are not part of true christianity as set out by its founder Jesus.

 

But then as the only branch of the christian church with any claim to apostolic succession, the catholic church can plausibly claim greater authority when it comes to deciding what is and isn't christian doctrine.

 

Yes but things like purgotory, last rites, praying to the Virgin Mary, are not in the bible and the bible actually says do not make graven images of any creature living or dead to bow down and pray to. And yet Catholics bow down and pray to statues of the Virgin Mary. The bible also good works are not neccessary to recieve eternal life, yet catholics believe in redemption through works such as penance. They believe a sin can be atoned for by doing a good work. Yet the bible says all that is needed to wipe away past sins is to ask Jesus for forgiveness and accept as your saviour. The Cathloic church's teachings seem to be very out of step with what is written in the bible.

 

But the catholic church, as the direct recipient of christian wisdom through the line of the apostles, is surely in the best position to determine what is and isn't a requirement of being a christian? It's only in recent years that the bible has been seen as the one and only source of determining how a christian should live, and then of course there's the problem of interpretation. Added to which, hgistorically christians believed that the pope was annointed by god, and as such, was god's voice on earth.

 

The matter is discussed in depth here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3386&page=3
According to them too, Catholics are not true christians. You have to remember that the Catholic church was founded by the Roman emporer Constantine. He took over leadership of the christian church and became the first pope. Leadership was not given to him as Jesus gave leadership to Paul and Paul gave leadership to the next person. So if leadership of the church was stolen, how can the pope claim to be the true representative of God on earth?

 

It's a bit simplistic to argue that Constantine "took over" the church. The official doctrine of the church was decided at the council of Nicaea, which was convened by Constantine. This constituted a gathering of over 300 chrisitian bishops, and resulted in the Nicaean crede, which is still recited in churches today. Hardly a one-man take-over bid.

 

Going back to the original thread. I'd like to ask those who are christian fundamentalists, creationists, biblical literalists...

What do you think of Islamic fundamentalism? Fundamentalist Muslims rely upon the words of an ancient text, considering them to have come to Mohammed from god. They believe the teachings of the Koran are the true, final commands of god to the people of earth. They believe it literally and it informs their behaviour and everything they do. There is no possibility for further development; all the teachings we need to live our lives are there in the Koran. So, they are much like you.

Are they wrong? If so, why?

 

tree house you are a dopey fuck, Peter as in the apostle was the rock on which the church was built and then he passed on the church and so on and so forth through the ages unto Pope John Paul II. now obviusely if you are not a catholic then you don't have to beleive any of it but if you are going to beleive none of it you better get yourself a different bible 'cause son the catholics decided what is in yours.

 

Hey Peppy!

wondered where you'd got to

How you doing?

Love Clairexxx

 

My computer caught a virus and was very sick, it is healed now but i think so much of it is new that really it is a differant computer and the old one died .

But now it is fixed i'll be about again.

 

Praise the lord!

So it's been born again?

Sorry dude. Humble apologies. I just couldn't resist. I accept I have a problem. :&

 

teeheehee good call, it's nice too see your lighter side. no need for apologising jokes are all good. unless ofcourse they are really shit and just ofensive. like racist jokes i dont' understand most of them just really ofensive although i did hear one about stevie wonder that was quite funny.