Honest question from an atheist

No, it has to do with the fact that this incredibly complex universe came from the Big Bang, before which everything was very simple.

Without intelligent intervention, complex systems that I observe in my own life tend to break down into simpler, dysfunctional components. In nature, we see species extinction and the rapid evolution of diseases. The natural order of things seems to be degeneration. That creates room for the concept of a Higher Power to exist, for me.

 

That feeling in the pit of your stomach - mine gets twisted up in knots whenever I think about the possibility of a god/gods/spirits, because to my core, it just feels ridiculous and deceptive and ungrounded. Every time I try to take religion seriously, I just feel hypocritical, like I'm a fool for even bothering with it, when I know I don't and can't believe in it.

This is where you lose me. Mind-boggling wonder, for me, is not a reason to look to a higher power. There's a shit load of things that I don't fully comprehend, but that doesn't make me automatically resort to some supernatural solution so that I can just close the door on it and say 'its a mystery of god' or whatever. there are plenty of answers that scientists probably wont ever come up with. not because they arent there, but because the workings of things may be too complex to work out on a human scale. we are, after all, descendants of animals who could never ever figure out half the things that humans have invented. just because we dont have the mental capacity to reason certain things doesnt mean we have to say "its not naturally possible - there must be somthing supernatural behind it"

extinction and rapid evolution of diseases make way for natural selection, which allows animals etc to continue evolving and mutating, becoming more complex step-by-step, so still, i dont really see the jump from just seeing nature as a complex system to the necessity for a "Higher" creator or whatever

 

You seem to have made a fairly quick jump from an “Honest question from an atheist” to stomping on the replies.

I only answered in the first place because I truly thought you were interested in the differences but that does not seem to be the case. Now it seems that you are just another atheist looking to pick a fight.

This could have been a very interesting discussion but it’s turned into the same old bait and switch. For instance, instead of this:

You could have said this; Seeing as I have not felt that; what is it exactly about this feeling that leads you to believe that feeling is connected to God in any way?

Here you could have said; I too feel mind boggling wonder at the world around me but that has not lead me to feel God’s presence, so what is it about that that leads you to believe in God?

Here you could said; Since I believe in evolution, I see the things you mention as proof of evolution not proof of God so what is it that leads you to think that it’s God’s hand in the matter?

You see this way you are still stating your beliefs and at the same time letting the other person know you are interested in their views and would like to know more about them and thus opening a dialog instead of just closing it.

Oh well have a nice day,
OWB

 

i apologize for offending you, honestly. i think im just replying with gut reactions. and in fact, i wanted responses that came straight from the gut of Christians to counter my own. so my intentions seriously were not to close dialogue - i was hoping that sharing my own honest feelings would get others to share theirs in opposition, to show how they differ. I think that if we keep conversation at a textbook level, i wont get the kind of response that im looking for. All the "you could have said it this way..." is unnecessary, this isnt a therapy session. i just want to hear something deeper/more passionate than the kind of answers you get from Sunday school

 

I never "close the door" on anything. If new facts or a new theory comes to light in any area of science, I am open to it. I just can't rule out the possibility of a higher power. It is simply one possibility that is out there.

If there is an all-powerful god, or even one that is somewhat powerful, there is no legitimate way to collect plausible evidence for or against his existence. We will never know any more about him than he wants us to know, and he obviously doesn't feel that he owes us a lot of explanations, if he exists. The question will forever remain unanswered.

It takes faith to feel certain that god exists, and it takes faith to feel certain that he does not exist. I consider faith to be the antithesis of logic and reason. Therefore, I don't take a strong position for or against his existence.

I think that your "gut feeling" is simply your own mind not allowing you to lie to yourself about what you really believe.

 

No, I’m not offended but thanks anyway.

All the "you could have said it this way..." is unnecessary? If I had said that your responses are closing the dialogue rather then opening it, would you have understood what I was talking about?

And whereas I realize this is not a therapy session, if you want to hear something deeper/more passionate than the kind of answers you get from Sunday school, you have to draw them out, make a way for them to come out.

If you’ll pardon me, the Bible says that; Counsel in the heart of a man is as deep waters, but the man of discernment is one that will draw it up.

So while it is a fine thing to just want to share your feelings with others, if you want someone to share their deeper/more passionate answers with you, you may have to make them feel safe in doing so and even try to draw them out as my "you could have said it this way..." was trying to point out.

PS Sorry if this has Hi-jacked your thread but I thought that if you really wanted someone to share their deeper/more passionate answers with you that this might help.

 

And that's ok too... we all have a way in which we are meant to see and perceive the world...and no one person's is the same. If you want it...you'll find it... all things take time... but if you are sincere and honest... whatever you'll need will come about...whether or not it means believing in god/gods/spirits the way you think its expected to be...

Things have a funny round about way of working themselves out in the end... even if we never understand...

 

Science is only part of the answer.

Science is a measurement, but is measurement the truth? Is there more to reality than measurement?

Sometimes logic and reason reaches a dead end. Not because the science is incomplete, but because there is another kind of logic that requires attention.

I might have went off on a tangent, but felt that it was necessary to comment on the statement that logic and reason is lost when another way of thinking is embraced. Logic and reason can be maintained while remaining faithful. Another way of thinking is added to the repertoire.

 

Olderwater - hijack all you want if its interesting, whatever, i do it too.
i will be more careful about reply-stomping

T O T A L L Y

and

'science is a measurement' yes - its the tool we use to understand our world. it helps us to evaluate the reality. the reality for me is just nature, period.
i understand where you're coming from with: "sometimes logic + reason reach a dead end.. there is another logic" i dont not think that myself, respectfully.
but you told me exactly how you think about this - hardly tangential - thanks

Everyone who replied has been helpful. its just good to know that everyones thinking about it

 

Thanx. I'll try and keep it interesting.

As for reply-stomping, no biggie, I do that myself sometimes. The only reason I brought it up was because in this case, I didn't think it was going to get you the answers and discussion you wanted but I've been wrong before.

In the interest of keeping it interesting, do you feel that the existence of God is a possibility? And if not why do you feel it isn't?

 

well.. no. my judgement tells me that god is a human construction, and that it is a natural tendency for most to want to believe in him (or something else supernatural) because he/it serves as a psychological support. The idea of his existence persists because it is comforting, and can tie up a lot of seemingly loose ends. For many "God" serves a purpose in their life, and that's where their faith stems from. I have no need for this. I have no problem with the idea of being essentially "alone" in the world. Most religious people would. I see myself as a product of nature. If I were raised in a community that never acknowledged teh idea of a higher power, I'm pretty sure my perception of the world would remain the same- I dont feel anything spiritual, that is distinguished from just experiencing strong feelings. For me, talk of a higher power is ungrounded. It's the kind of concept that I would never come up with myself, because I have no necessity for it. And I don't think it needs to play a role in the way the universes functions - so "God" doesnt need to serve as an explanation of anything either. The only thing I can "believe" in is nature itself. So where does teh idea of God come from? Some people have learned to need it & internalized the concept. thats my halfassed attempt to answer teh question

 

And a very good “halfassed attempt” it was!


First, to kind of clear the decks, in this thread I will not try to prove God one way or another. So if I ask questions it’s to better understand why you feel the way you do and I’ll expect the same from you.

Second, after thousands of years of argument no one has proved the existence of God one way or the other, so let’s leave whether God exists or not on the back burner so to speak and just talk about how we personally feel about the matter.

So if I say I feel God exists, I don’t expect you to agree with me, I’m merely saying it to express how I feel so you can understand better how I feel about the matter and likewise if you say you feel God doesn’t exist.

Ok, with that out of the way.


You said; I have no problem with the idea of being essentially "alone" in the world. Most religious people would.

As for me I wouldn’t know if would have a problem with that or not, because from a very early age I’ve never felt alone. I can remember before I was even told about God, that I’ve always felt that, as I said earlier, someone was there with me, only later when told about God did I connect the two. So I have no problem with the idea of being “alone”, I’ve just never felt it.

You ask; where does the idea of God come from? Your answer is; Some people have learned to need it & internalized the concept. And for someone who feels God doesn’t exist that is as good an answer as it gets.

But look at it from my viewpoint, God is as real as the Sun, the Moon, the Stars and even the earth itself. So if asked; where does the idea of God come from? To me, it’s a little like being asked where the idea of the Sun, the Moon and the stars come from? My first response is; Huh?

Ok, that’s my “halfassed attempt” to answer about half your questions.

Now tag you’re it!

 

Alot of it has to do with a nueral predisposed duality we have evolved. We are inclined to believe there is someone else watching us and listening to our thoughts, because our brains have another thought process watching the first one in order to catch simple mistakes.

Personally, I believe in God, because I feel it to be compatible with everything I know about science. For everything there is an origin, and for me that origin is simply named God (whatever it may actually be). I find it comforting, as well, to think that everything is preordained and that no matter what I do, I am a tiny, insignificant speck of existence in His great and ever-expanding universe and will eventually die without much impact.

It makes the state of the world more bearable to think that eventually all that is will cease to be, because that's exactly how God meant it to be. Man will never cheat death, man can never do anything that can't be undone in a millenia or two.

Alot of it has to do with comfort level.

 

i've had experiences that convinced me that God exists. and no, i'm not interested in arguing with anyone about it. :tongue:

 

Essentially i think it comes down to what i was thinking in the first place, that some have a biological propensity that allows them to feel god and have faith and lalalalala which makes it, as we've seen, quite hard to "debate" because it comes down to 'i just know it because i do' on both ends

 

Nueral predisposed duality? I'm simply amazed at the things people come up with. I guess I'll have to go with Ocham's razor on this one, God in this case seems to be the simple answer.

 

Debate? Your original question; “Can someone explain what it feels like to be honest with yourself and "know" that god is real?” led me to believe that you just wanted someone to tell you how it feels, not debate with you.

If you really wanted to debate, I would ask you why you “believe” that there is some as yet unproven or unfound “biological propensity” to believe in God or not, because that seems to be as much a belief system as any belief that someone has in God.

 

Feelings are not worth much, when it comes to important issues. There was a time in history when virtually everyone "felt" strongly that the earth was flat. It was just as round as it is today.

 

i meant that in response to what you said previous to it, because you changed the path of the thread when you took my statements and challenged them with your own. which i dont mind, because i do care what christians have to say about the thoughts that come to my mind. so i dunno "tag your it," what was i supposed to do with that? im not trying to play a game. and the biological propensity to believe in god(s) has been studied. science is just something that makes sense to me, it agrees with my logic so i dont feel i have to have "believe" it, rather i just know.

 

Sorry if you took it as a challenge, I was just comparing your viewpoint with mine, without saying right or wrong.

As for the “tag you’re it”, to me it was just a fun way of saying “your turn”, sorry if that offended you in some way.

And yes, the biological propensity to believe in god(s) has been studied but nothing has been proven one way or another or whether there even is one.

As for science, it’s been wrong so many times in the past, how can you tell whether it is right or wrong now? Or do you just “know” it until scientists tell you that you now need to “know” differently now?

As for me, I find science to be fascinating and follow it with great interest but as for taking everything they come up with as the “truth”...

Have you been following the search for “dark matter”? The newest “Scientific American” mag., points out that there is a possibility that space may not be uniform and that because the Earth may be in a pocket that is non-uniform, that may be the reason that the observations of the Universe that have been made, appear to need “dark matter”. So which one do you “know”, is there “dark matter” or not?