why cant a perfect system be rationally deduced?

What's wrong with spirituality?



Spirituality is very important, in my opinion.


Religion, on the other hand, is not quite so.


I actually consider religion to be the work of negative forces, which operate under the maxim of divide and conquer, along with others, which effectively splits humanity against each other, and breeds much strife and negativity which these dark forces so much enjoy.

I believe in God, My Father, and Creator, and I respect and venerate him.

He is all of Creation, as we are finite projections of his Being, and it is our duty whilst on this plane of existence, which can be quite trying at times, to learn Karmic lessons, and further our spiritual training until reunification with our Higher Self.

 

We are religious animals. That's not to say that we have to follow any particular religious belief, but that we are moral and religious creatures. And when we move away from who we are, then we become something else. Something other than what we are and that can cause conflicts within our own lives, others lives, and the planet itself. In other words, we become a farce, and whatever we touch is turned in kind.

No one has ever mentioned sky wizards. I think we are undermining the concept of God when we say things like this. It doesn't even require a concept, just experience, but we then may attach an image, symbol, idea to this experience to try to express the experience of it. But that in of itself dilutes what God is and itself becomes a symbol rather than a reality.

But when someone says something like how we should reconnect to the earth, they they would be right. We should be, and that in of itself is a religious/spiritual thing to do imo. It is earth medicine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IpOq0RFGQc), and it is necessary and essential to reconnect to this. How can beings that grew on this earth not have respect for the earth? After all, the earth is alive, so are rocks, and it eventually became us. To disconnect to this, is to disconnect with the earth and reality, and when we make this disconnection... well, then we become unplugged from the life support system and then we start to rot away. Like a flower that experiences a drought, rather than being a tree near a river.

And like Ari has said, it must be induced, but it won't happen as long as we remain the way that we are. We have to change before government or the world can change. You can't just change government and expect that to do anything other than change the functioning around a little and possibly get things to run a tiny bit more smoothly. Change begins at the individual level. Always has, always will.

 

No. We moved on from worshiping nature and paganistic values and onto sky wizards and invisible men in the sky that see everything we do and are omnipotent and all divine. We pray to an invisible man now, not our spirituality and our connections with our human environment.

This is the story of the divide and conquering the victors have sought to instill throughout history. That we should be worshiping a singular being instead of everything we see around us. It's a false God.

And I'm a Catholic who sung in the choir yesterday. It's really not that difficult to realize that spirituality is very separate from all religions and there are disconnections especially to Christian values from secular humanistic values.

 

Why does it have to be We?

Why can't you do your own thing, live by example?


I worship everything I see, because I know that I walk in His Creation, and that I am His son, and what is His is mine, and what is mine is His.


We are but lost sheep, wandering about in the darkness, and we shall be reunified with our shepherd in due time.

 

Why does it have to be He?

Why can't you do your own thing, live by your own example?

- We are but lost sheep without HIM, right? -

 

simply there's no such thing as perfection!

 

Not at all, It doesnt have to be He at all, you can refer to The Creator by any name you see fit, I don't care, that is a matter between you and God. I only refer to Him as a male for the sake of simplicity.



And I do do my own thing, I dont subscribe to any religious philosophy or dogma, I take what I like, and leave the rest, and weave it together into my own unique spirituality.

And, my metaphor of the sheep doesnt necessarily mean that we can't get along without Him, the fact of the matter is that we were made by something, somewhere, something utterly powerful and all-knowing, and we were given FREE WILL, so that we may learn on our own, further enriching the Cosmic Consciousness. Because we were derived from God, and everything in existence will eventually find its way back to total reunification with the Father.

 

Good grief. Are you always this enthusiastic about your spiritual insights?

 

Yes.

 

I am pretty much in lines with you, Ari, but I think we are lost somewhere in communication. You say that I am not connected to everything around me, or that I am worshiping 'a man in the sky'. Both of these statements are untrue and it is misrepresenting what I feel.

When people say He, I hope that they aren't serious.

"We pray to an invisible man now, not our spirituality and our connections with our human environment."

See, I don't understand these kinds of statements, honestly. When did I say that I pray to an invisible man? When did I say that I was a Pagan? It is our innervision, and it is said that the temple of God is within everyman. This is a symbolic representation of what you are saying. It's the spirit, not a he, or an invisible sky wizard. You're dissecting what I am saying and turning it into something that it is not.

Most Christians aren't Christians. Most Catholics don't even read the text that their faith is based on, but rather, go by 'official interpretations' of the church. Most people have no clue what Christianity is about because it's hardly ever discussed in detail. I am not saying that to anger anyone, or to blame anyone, but just making it known that most misrepresent what it is because of the nature of discussion based on it.

The Christ consciousness is rarely discussed in detail, for example. And if it was, I feel then that Secular humanists would agree with what is said about it.

But it is not my intention to change anyone's mind about anything, only that they don't misrepresent others.

But no matter what, above all else, faith is important. No matter what it might be. Because without faith, humanity is screwed imo. And I am always happy to see someone being faithful

 

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Straighten me out here,...... Are you stating that people are not selfish and that people don't naturaly work the angles to exploit the system ?

What a monsterous vanity, to think that man could achive a perfect system here on this earth.

Then again, our politicians are constantly peddling perfect systems and we all get suckered in.

Worshiping a "Sky God" doesnt seem any less rational than beliving in perfection on Earth.

 

How can we ever hope to change the system if we don't change ourselves?

 

The Bible leaves little wiggle room to change ourselves. All scripture is pretty limiting.

 

Propose a new system and then discuss it

 

Personally, I don't see what's limiting about it, but we can always discuss this in the Christianity forum if you ever want.

 

Well using the Bible as a "law book" doesn't allow room for evolution. It doesn't give us true insight into problems we may have that can't be possibly imagined now (designer babies, etc.).

Any discussion on these shady topics is purely a moral/philosophical debate, far away from any concrete ties to "God".

It's true tho, us and the system are one and the same. Even purchasing a Twix bar sends ripples throughout the universe (making plastic, refinining sugars, transporation, getting the fuel, giving profit to someone else, having them spend it, --------->......)

Maybe if we get super cheap energy one day the world will change.

 

who's the monster here.....

your pitting unfounded caps on human capability because, for some reason, we have to hate and kill each other, and exploit for personal gain.....because that's what every human on planet earth always does all the time.....and because you know....things like consideration and technology cannot override the want and need to steal.... well w/e

if you were willing to state that human nature will always cause turmoil and destruction, id have to know why its manifestation is only evident in some things rather than all of them....

"our politicians" are catering to their corporate masters.....fixing problems with other problems is what they are peddling.

in short: i am saying people are not naturally selfish and acquisitive.... i am saying the human being adapts to survive, and if surviving involves selfishness and acquisition, then man will be selfish.

 

because people are different from each other but not different than any other animal, we are not meant to be civilized, we are meant to be free-natured. society is the downfall of human beings.

''The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naive enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.''

-rousseaus theory of natural man, discourse of inequality.

 

Beautiful quote. Although I'm not sure society is the downfall is man.

Society is just one of the evolutionary paths mankind has taken. It has allowed us to specialize and accomplish things that are impossible to do without collectivization. Sure it has many problems, but so does living alone/ in a small tribe.

I think not realizing truth is the downfall of mankind. Not being able to fully be in the NOW, and living in the past. We could not pollute the air, not chop down the rainforest, and not overfish the oceans and have a great society.

To me society can be a great thing, our greatest weakness and our greatest strength. It's amazing I can work one hour at McDonalds and get enough money to eat for a whole day. Sure there are many vulnerabilities in society, and corruption, but it's the same for living alone or in a small tribe. If you lived in alone one rampant murderer could kill 1000 people. No way of living is perfect. Life is about evolution, moving forward, dreaming the biggest idea of who you want to be and being there. Life moves towards unity, working together towards a greater cause. We are cells that collect to form tissues, then organs, then organ systems. That is the natural progression of life.

A guy a million miles away is tied to my existence. The interconnectedness, unity, the possibilities. It's absolutely beautiful. Life is fractal geometry. From realms of existence tinier than an atom to beyond galaxies. It is simply life, evolution, working itself out on every single level of existence.

The downfall is when people cannot deal with truth or cannot see it. Lack of transparency doesn't allow people to see truth, and doesn't allow people to evolve according to what is NOW.

 

Aristartle, your concept of God is obivously a negative one, and prevents you from thinking about it on any other level. I was only trying to describe the process of trying to gravitate towards a higher form.

God is not a wizard or an invisible person, it just is. It doesnt think or act, but consists of all that is and the forces that bind all things together. I believe that is what drew and def were saying. And the christ consciousness describes an idea that conscious creatures shares mind sets, and the value in discovering and mastering the "chist conscious".

And the bible in no way prevents one from interpreting its value in relation to the rest of the knowledge in this world.

I disagree that greed is the best way to adapt. Unity would allow the most adaptive advantages. So I would agree that most humans do not try to comprehend the dynamics of selflessness. This creates all the obstacles needed to prevent humans from reaching a perfect society. BUT IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE.