general anti-bible thread

Have a general problem with the bible? This is the place to rant about it.

 

I'll start.

Do you know how the canon of scripture was formed? In the early history of the church, groups of christian leaders met in various councils and voted on what was going to be in the official bible, and what would be thrown out. You can assume that more than half of those men were led by god to vote correctly, and/or that god somehow told them how to vote, or you can assume that they were more or less typical religious leaders of that time, each with his own agenda. Human nature tells me that the latter is much more likely. If so, they simply picked out books that made the bible say what they wanted it to say; things that agreed with their personal beliefs and convictions. Quite a few books were rejected by the councils.

This human influence was piled on top of the decisions of translators in picking manuscripts to translate. For every book of the bible there are multiple hand-copied manuscripts, each one different in some ways from any other. Generally, translators work from blended bits and pieces of different manuscripts, looking for consistency with church teachings and lack of contradictions. In other words, they tinker as much as they dare to improve the quality of the book, without going so far as to making things up out of thin air. They had no way of knowing which copies were closest to the originals, if they cared.

And we know that the original books of the new testament were written down many years after the events took place. When we read these books, we are trusting the long-term memories of superstitious, uneducated men that we don't know very much about. We know much less about the paper trail of old testament books. There is no way of knowing how similar the oldest existing copies are to the originals.

Calling the end result of this chain of events the word of god seems incredibly far fetched to me. That is why, when a minister says that we should trust god, I hear him say that we should instead trust all the people who claim they know what god has said. We cannot trust god if we have no accurate information about him, what he thinks, what he has said, or what he expects of us. What other source do we have?

Some individuals have a deeply held belief that god has done whatever was necessary to insure that they have an accurate bible in their hands, but there is no basis for this belief other than wishful thinking, and possibly an inflated sense of self-worth. We know that there are millions of impoverished people in the world that have no access to accurate information about anything important. Why do we think we are we so special?

If the bible proves anything to me, it is that many people want so badly to hear what god has to say that they are willing to play almost any possible mind game and stretch any concept to its logical breaking point to convince themselves and others that this kind of information exists in pure form. There is no hard evidence that god has ever attempted to answer any of our questions about him, or to communicate anything else to us in words. If he exists, maybe he simply has nothing to say to us.

 

Don't read it then.

 

I don't. And that can be the end of the matter, if you don't live in an area where people constantly try to shove the bible down your throat, and act as if everyone with half a brain knows that the bible is the most trustworthy book on earth. You can't live where I do and ignore the issue. The church is the cornerstone of local culture and society.

I guess now you're going to tell me to move.

If we all just move to places where everyone agrees with us on everything, we can simply dispense with all these silly little debates on various topics.

 

just tell them you're already saved

 

Sometimes that works. What I can't and won't fake is hatred for the secular left.

I suspect there are a lot of people around here who only pay lip service to the dominant religion because it is easier than enduring mistreatment for being honest. I can't respect the practice, even though I have done it many times. The price is losing some of your self-respect.

 

ironic that it was a pastor for Calvary Chapel that told me this

Not sure if they are in you neck of the woods or not... but they are a pretty large fundamentalist group that started in cali

Surfers for jesus

 

i find religions interesting.a good example is the mormon religionfounded,what?,in the 1820's in new york state.the whole western migration thing.mormon's often ask me about being saved i always tell them i'll talk to them about mormon history but not the bible.i guess they can't do it.it seems like they would be happy just to have someone willing to talk to them.

 

there was a band called the Call , who many felt had some sort of religious message
but is it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=272T8hZUqcs


I Still Believe

I been in a cave
For forty days
Only a spark
To light my way
I wanna give out
I wanna give in
This is our crime
This is our sin

But I still believe
I still believe
Through the pain
And the grief
Through the lies
Through the storms
Through the cries
And through the wars
Oh, I still believe

Flat on my back
Out a sea
Hopin’ these waves
Don’t cover me
I’m turned and tossed
Upon the waves
When the darkness comes
I feel the grave

But I still believe
I still believe
Through the cold
And the heat
Through the pain
And through the tears
Through the crowds
And through the cheers
Oh, I still believe

I’ll march this road
I’ll climb this hill
Down on my knees if I have to
I’ll take my place
Up on this stage
I’ll wait ’til the end of time
For you like everybody else
I’m out on my own
Walkin’ the streets
Look at the faces
That I meet
I feel like I like I want to go home
What do I feel
What do I know

But I still believe
I still believe
Through the shame
And through the grief
Through the heartache
Through the years
Through the waiting
Through the years

For people like us
In places like this
We need all the hope
That we can get
Oh, I still believe

 

It's come up in another thread, but my main beef is less with the Bible and more with those who read it and take it as gospel. Fair enough if the book had actually fallen from the heavens signed and autographed by our Lord and Saviour. But we know that it didn't, that it was written by men, and while those men may have been under the influence of God rather than heatstroke, there's no evidence for that. It came up because someone insisted that there was, but refused to share it (because that would have been TOO FAR off topic), so I'm hoping that he'll rise to the challenge.

 

But the actual content... I dunno, take or leave it, right? I mean, there's no point in blaming a book for its readers. Even if someone wrote a book that JUST said "kill the following people: Jews, blacks, gays, women" over and over again, you wouldn't blame the book if someone actually did it.

 

I question the logic of arguing over doctrine. Does it bring either side closer to God?

 

It is hard to separate the two. So many of the political and philosophical debates in America trace back to the core issue that many people in this country have absolute confidence that the bible is accurate and trustworthy. If this was not the case, we would not be so deeply divided on so many different issues. Addressing individual issues without cutting to the core is missing the key to understanding the big picture.

I think we have been needing for several weeks a bible debate thread that has fewer rules. Anything that pertains to the accuracy and value of the bible fits here. Bring it on.

The main value is to younger people who have not made up their minds what to think. They need to take in different perspectives from every side and fully digest them. Also, they should not have the false impression that there is much unity on these subjects.

 

Thing is, you can look at other Christian countries and find the same book totally failing to cause such unrest among the masses. To me, blaming the Bible for any bigoted or xenophobic belief or act a person chooses to blame on their religion is no better than blaming a movie or a video game or some international Jewish conspiracy or whatever. I don't think that people who believe that the Bible is literally true are any different from those who play GTA: San Andreas for 3 days solid and then take a shotgun to a shopping mall.

Point being, to avoid just putting a patch on the problem, you need to lay the blame squarely on those who do the crimes, remember everyone who read the Bible and didn't blow up an abortion clinic and probably never will, and address that. If you can get away from a culture where people feel perfectly able to just say "The Bible told me to do it" whenever they get pissy, yes, you'll still have nutters, but those nutters won't pollute the more rational public debate.

 

I wouldn't use the word blame here. The bible simply is what it is, and there are consequences when people think it is something that it isn't. Most evangelical conversion sermons rely heavily on quoting scripture, with an implied assumption that the accuracy of the book is beyond question. In reality, the accuracy of the book is THE question. It has been put on too high of a pedestal for too long. Everything needs to be questioned in an honest and open-minded way, especially if you are contemplating basing important life decisions on an ancient book's content. Without the bible, what is left of christianity?

I personally think that if the trustworthiness of the bible became more of a controversial, debatable issue in America, there would be a major ripple effect throughout the political far right. The effects would be far-reaching. We are a long way from finding out for sure if I am right about this.

So far (fortunately), extreme christian fundamentalism has only motivated a small number of individuals to take extreme actions. I see more cumulative damage done to society by lesser illogical and irrational acts that are done every day by folks who do not have such terrible intentions.

I say shine the light of truth on this book and see what happens next. It has been getting too much of a free pass for far too long.

 

I say shine the light of truth on this book and see what happens next. It has been getting too much of a free pass for far too long.

Good luck on that one.

 

I'm doing my part. That's all I can do.

 

My problem with the bible is that it contradicts itself too many times.
Love your enemies and yet you kill them.
Sex is a crime, yet women are gettin their fathers drunk and sleeping with them...

I mean, seriously?

 

There is a lengthy thread devoted to that subject, in detail. I posted in it one of the contradictions that bothers me the most, but nobody has yet come up with a response for it.

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?p=5540721#post5540721

 

amen brother