The re-branding of the right

Hipstatic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deranged
i honestly have no idea what "right wing libertarian" means.

I’ve repeated several times now that I’m talking about those people that come here with right wing views and a right wing philosophy who claim to be ‘libertarians’.

Those that I call right wing libertarians.

You’re not presenting a counter argument you’re just saying I’m wrong (because you’re telling me I’m wrong).

And you’re not even reading what’s been said.

You seem to want to misdirect and mislead because you haven’t actual got a real counter argument.

 

The thing is that the right wing libertarian ideas of freedom and choice don’t take into account that freedom of action and choice in a capitalist system (and especially in a free market capitalist system) are very much dictated by material wealth.

With those on the lower scale have much more limited choice and freedom of action in the real world than does some at the top of the scale.

They disconnect these social and economic realities from their model.

For example right wing libertarians would legalise prostitution, by claiming it is a individuals right to do what they want with their body and out of the free market belief of selling what you want as long as it is yours.

The thing is that many turn to prostitution not out of want, but out of need, usually economic need and if the economic necessity was not there then they would be doing it.

But for me this social and economic reality doesn’t seem to be taken into account and free market ideas seem designed to create more inequality.

 

The thing is Balbus, the only evidence that you have provided that libertarianism is right wing is that you think so (and so do your marxist buddies).

Nobody else here thinks so. I have even provided a dictionary definition that not only supports my views, but specifically notes that your view is a 'common mistake'.

You have done nothing except repeat over and over that your view is correct.

Is this how things work under socialism?

 

I’ve set out why I think they’re right wing, you’re making an assertion that I’m wrong, the definition you quote doesn’t actually refute my arguments because it is basically an assertion, it doesn’t specifically cover what I’ve being saying.

That definition doesn’t seem to cover what I’ve observed and commented on.

Can you actually able to refute my arguments or are you just going to make assertions and quote assertions that don’t.

 

yes.

 

qft

 

what's wrong with selling what's yours if ya want to? That makes me right wing? Hoo-hoo! That makes almost everybody right wing.

Why? Explain what you are talking about . Give an example. This is just a generalization without much meaning.

 

Jeez, Balbus, and I thought I was paranoid...

 

Thank you, Skip.

 

Generally wouldn't it be said in terms of Libertarianism though that they go together?

 

And even those two types of Libertarians overlap. Wouldn't it be a personal freedom if you could decide where your taxes went? I can not see any type of functional society without some way to have the masses contribute to things that are necessary, like helping the hungry, poor and homeless, or keeping infrastructure up. That would be taxes. (perhaps taxes should only be used for HELPING, directly, and only people who donate voluntarily to the military need support it).

It doesn't matter if you are fine with some folks being wealthy and some poor or not. It will be that way anyhow, it's the nature of the beast. Not everyone is as smart/talented/hard working as others. Some folks just have better luck, some better karma, some better personalities that get them farther.... You'll have that. The best idea is to ADDRESS the problem. You can not take existing social programs away without replacing them with something. How about less governmental interference but more citizen supported help on a more localized level?

See, this is what I mean. Everyone has differing and overlapping ideas. So, like Skip says, attempts to narrow them down to a tight label won't work.

And labels come with them all sorts of bias, which creates bad feelings and causes there to be communication breakdowns. All those categories of people most likely have a lot more in common than they realize, but BECAUSE of the categories, they stay divided. The more categories, the more ways to argue and disagree... People are EXPECTED to label themselves and others. It can be difficult for someone to get over the need to label others politically, when there are people who DO fit neatly into a category. But it would seem they would be hard to find, as there are no absolutes. Only basic personality differences.

 

I remember posting to that thread, it did not receive a response, yet you are back with the same theme. Why?

Are you saying that I am unwelcome here? or should feel shame?
So what if I am right wing? Why all of the hair splitting to categorize the posters to this forum? Supposedly it is an exchange of ideas, not an echo chamber.

With what is going on in Iran and in North Korea, I am not ready to concede that I am wrong in my opinions of the rulers of those nations. Has the current administration achievied any success here?

What you often describee as "wealth" seems to mean private property.

The level of coercion necessary to colectivize all property is un-democratic. People have enjoyed personal property since Neolithic times, no goverment will ever be able to successfully change this for an extended period of time.
I accept the disparity as evidence of freedom, as the cost of freedom.
Is anyone immigrating to Cuba?

Democracy, by its disign is relatively "weak" as you state, most people want it this way to prevent overreach.

In America we have seen the loss of two inspector generals this month due to pressure from political cronyism. Resignation of the Inspector General of Amtrack Railroad and the firing of the Inspector General of Americorps. Both are quasi goverment agencies. opposition politicians can shine the light on possible corruption and theft of taxpayer monies by investigating circumstances surrounding the exit of the IG's That is what opposition politicians are for.

 

Piney

I read your post and saw it as your opinion and not something that needed a reply.
Why do you think it needed one?
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I’ve said many times that I want right wingers here and people have basically told me I should be ashamed of my own left wing views, do I feel shame, the hell I do.
I find it strange that some right wingers seem so ashamed of their own right wing views that they’re trying to claim they’re not right wing, I just wondering why.
I express things as I see them, I put up my arguments to be picked over, people can criticise them and I’ll defend them from criticism. I expect the same from other people because that is the open and honest exchange of ideas.
The problem is that some people seem to wish to put forward ideas they don’t seem willing or able to defend, and in place of counter arguments all they present are meaningless assertions.
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One person’s private property is a begging bowl and another person’s is billions of dollars.

Which person do you think has the greater power and influence?

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I agree, and I’ve not called for the collectivising of all private property.

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The best forms of democracy have checks and balances placed on those with power and influence, all those with power and influence.

 

What I’m trying to point out is that there seem to be some ‘basic greedy capitalists’ coming here seem to be claiming that they are ‘caring lefties’ claims that I find disingenuous at best and at worse damn right lying.

I agree with Skip and Earthmother that ‘libertarianism’ covers a whole range of opinions, but as I’ve pointed out a lot of those that come here claiming to be libertarians have been basically right wingers with views based on a right wing outlook and philosophy.

The left and right of every shade face a lot of the same problems, it is how they view them and how they think is best way to tackle them that in many ways reveals them as being left or right of the issue.

 

By that definition ,they're not right wing libertarians if they're only pretend to be libertarian are they?

They're just right wing.

 

gedio

Well that is exactly my point to me they are just right wingers, but I suppose the suffix libertarian distinguishes them form other elements of the right (e.g. traditional conservatives, neo-conservatives, the Christian right, nationalists, etc)

 

Why does everyone need a label?



What's your label for me, Balbus?

 

I just want to be free to make my own choices. I don't know about all this right wing left wing stuff. I think the purpose of government ought to be to protect freedom not make my choices for me.