The Bible, the Papacy and the Church

The Bible, the Papacy and the Church:


My questions:

Is the Papacy supported by scriptures? If so, what passages supports the Church and the Papacy?

If the Papacy and the church are not supported by scriptures, can it be a part of Christianity? If so, why? If not, why?

 

Depends on who you talk to, and what you mean by Church.

I believe so. I believe in the Primacy of Peter and that the primacy is passed to his successors. I also believe that the authority given to the apostles was also given to the bishops, and then to the other bishops, and then to the other bishops...et cetera also known as Apostolic Succession.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html This site has a lot of good arguemnts for the Primacy of Peter, and some not so good ones.

A few good ones are:
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.
John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles.
Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).

 

Ukr-Cdn and I have discussed this and have more or less agreed to disagree.

To me, even if everything that Ukr-Cdn is true, the problem lies in how much weight should be given to it.

In Jesus day the Jews put a lot of weight in believing God was with them because they were descendants of Abraham, which they were.

But Jesus said at John 8:39; In answer they said to him: “Our father is Abraham.” Jesus said to them: “If YOU are Abraham’s children, do the works of Abraham.

Jesus pointed that they were only truly Abraham’s children if they did the works of Abraham, likewise the Popes and Bishops can only be considered successors if they do the works of the apostles, by their fruitage you will know them.

Looking at what past Popes have done, one would wonder if the apostles would have approved of all the things that have been done by the Popes in the name of Christianity and whether or not such things would have meant that the Apostolic succession had been broken and passed on to others, as was the case of the Jews in Jesus’ day.

 

Try reading Alexander Hisop's book "the Two Babylons".

Written in the 1890 by a Anglican Priest,

very very revealing.
link to amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Two-Babylons-...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245866429&sr=1-2

Also the Christ Conspiracy
http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Conspi...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245866497&sr=1-1

Both books document the origins of the Christian Religion, neither makes any distinctions between Protestant and Catholic religions.

Proves the following

The Pope's Miter was the same one worn in Babylon by the high priest of Molech/Baal
Easter was a holiday in Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Rome and Sumer.
So was Christmas
and Passover
Why Catholics eat fish on Fridays
Where confessions come from
Where baptism comes from
Holy water
Bread Wine and Communion
Crosses
Fish symbols

to name a few.

The Catholic religion is nothing more than the Babylonian Mystery religion with a new name and a new God and demigod under the name of God the father/Nimrod ( this is what baal and molech were called also) and his son Jesus/Ninus.

It's OK with me if anyone want to worship knowing this, but knowing is the key


Peace
Dan

 

Try again.

For example, Hislop claims that the Blessed Sacrament (i.e consecrated bread, that is literally the Body Blood and Soul of Christ) is actually referencing back to pagan sun worship because the wafer happens to be round. What Hislop leaves out is that manna from god is also round!

He also claimed that IHS on communion wafers stands for "Isis, Horus, Seb" (the identical claims can be found in Jack chick Tracts). What is really stands for is Iesus Hominum Salvator meaning Jesus, Savior of Mankind (which also fits the teaching of Transubstantiation, where the wafer and wine are said to become the body and blood of Christ).

 

I’ve read the Two-Babylons, I thought it was interesting, I haven’t read the Christ Conspiracy, so can’t really comment on it but your list of things;
The Pope's Miter was the same one worn in Babylon by the high priest of Molech/Baal
Easter was a holiday in Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Rome and Sumer.
So was Christmas
and Passover
Why Catholics eat fish on Fridays
Where confessions come from
Where baptism comes from
Holy water
Bread Wine and Communion
Crosses
Fish symbols

I have to ask; what do think the origins of Christian religions is; that don’t use any of those things, except perhaps baptism, bread and wine, in their worship?

 

I made no such agreement. how dare thee speaketh for me!


OWB, you are aweome.

 

Now you've done it, you're excelent!

 

From a historical context I would have to say Gnostic, they were the first Christians.

IMHO all religions have the same origins, Sumer/Babylon.

I don't care what anyone believes, but again IMHO all religions are corrupt/corrupted.

Why does a God need the following

Pomp
Ceremonies
Pagents
Sacrafices
Houses of worship
Priest/Rabbis/Popes/Minsters/Shamans/etc etc etc
Special Days
Special clothes
to name a few.

If there is a God, isn't it true to say that he knows your intention with out any of the above listed items?
And if God is all knowing, all powerful etc etc why does he need our money,
our actions in the form that is listed above?

If the pope if the vicar of Christ then why are they wrong so many times,
like only figuring out that Mary was a goddess in the 12th centruy?

Not trying to offend.

Peace
Dan

 

Now I may not be the most well-informed Christian ever, but reading the book of Revelation cites some pretty...."revealing" information on the Catholic church. Maybe I don't have much knowledge off hand, but that one part of the Bible alone is all you need.

 

FYI honeyfugle, I know of no clear direct reference to the Church in St John's Apocalypse.
Can you please help me out?

A little bit of trivia, Luther thought it was "offensive" and Calvin thought it was "of little value".

 

After reading up properly on Biblical scripture, I have gathered some interesting references that you might want to peruse over

Jesus said:

----
Jesus said:

----

----
The Apostle Paul said:

----

Mary is not a mediator between human and God.
----

----

- As a Catholic I was taught that what good deeds I did would grant heaven, it seems the Bible has other ideas.
----

Not the Pope.
----

Jesus said:

Speaking of a spiritual father.
----

Jesus said:

(Rosary prayers are repeated over and over)
----

The Catholic church, as is the case with many other churches makes idols and images of heavenly things and bows down to them.

 

the Book of revelation I believe references the Catholic church, here are some quotes/reasonings behind it
:
Revelation 17

The Catholic church is truly international, as I believe referenced above.

Wine - probably the wine served at Communion.

Purple, Scarlet and Gold are colours used by Catholic robes, Golden Cup used for Communion.

Revelation 18

Again, an international faith.

I believe this does not need explaining.

A catalogue of items used by the Catholic church.

There are probably much more I could quote, but do not have much time on my hands to do so.

 

Funny the Luther was mentioned. The Pope tried to have Luther murdered how very Christlike....

Then there's ones they did murder, Huss,Tyndale, Wycliff etc. Shall I mention the Waldenses the Hugenots and lets not forget the Inquistion?

By their fruits you will know them.....

If Peter was the Bishop of Rome then why did Paul not greet him in the opening of his letter to the Romans? In case you have forgotten Paul rebuked Peter for refusing to associate with Gentile Christians.

In all fairness Calvin was a murderer too.

 

Father: "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15)

Repeated prayer:
Matt. 26:44 - for example, Jesus prayed a third time in the garden of Gethsemane, saying the exact same words again. It is not the repetition that is the issue. It's the vanity. God looks into our heart, not solely at our words

Luke 18:13 - the tax collector kept beating his breast and praying "God be merciful to me, a sinner." This repetitive prayer was pleasing to God because it was offered with a sincere and repentant heart.

1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul commands us to pray constantly. Good repetition is different than vain repetition.

Rev. 4:8 - the angels pray day and night without cessation the same words "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty." This is repetitious prayer that is pleasing to God.

 

And other demoninations aren't international? Christ told us to go to the corners of the world and preach. Christ's Church is international. If it isn't it isn't the correct one.

Wine: Christ gave us the gift of wine for use in the Blessed Sacrament during his last supper.

 

i think it's the adultries that are the issue ~ the fact that Catholocism appealled to Kings, etc., because it preached a precept of "Don't worry about sinning! You can confess, say a rosary (which will take your mind OFF of your transgressions), and you're forgiven! OR, if that doesn't suit, just fork up some bucks for a Dispensation, because we KNOW sometimes God really doesn't mean it"...

Sorry ~ to me, those are betrayals to the very concept of God, and remind me of the Money-changers in the temple...

 

Incorrect. God gave us wine for medicinal purposes ~

it aids digestion, it's good for your blood, it's relaxing, it will help you to sleep, etc.

Pretty interesting that it's taken Science, what, 2,000 YEARS to prove that, eh???

 

Jesus said to call no man Father except for you Father which is in Heaven.

The Title of The Pope Vicarus Felie Dei(spelling?) means in place of Christ on Earth which is total blasphemy! No imperfect human being can forgive sins and take the place of God on Earth.

Fyenza has a point. Paul did instruct Timothy to drink a little wine for some unspecified stomach ailment.

You still haven't addressed the fact that THe Catholic Church has had a history of murdering those that dared to challenge their authority. They even banned the publication, posession and reading of the Bible. Tyndale translated the Bible into English then published it and was burned at the stake for his troubles!!!!! The Reformers in the British Isles had to go to great lengths to smuggle Bibles into the country and even had a clandestine distribution system to spread the word to the common people.

 

The Church is perfect, the people are not.

Your reference to banning Bibles. What the Church did was ban certain translations (unauthoritative translations) into English. There was an English translation that the Church approved called the Douay-Rheims Bible. PS- this was before the often adored KJV, which was stylized after the Douay-Rheims