Do you make a distinction...

...between a belief in God and organized religion?

In discussions with atheists, it always seems to start as a rally against the evils of organized religion, and then immediately jumps to how stupid it is to believe in "an old man on a cloud" (an interesting assumption, since no theist I know views god in this way...) However, the way I see it, there are two different arguments here, which often end up unfairly meshed together.

You can protest against organized religion all you want, I'm not going to defend it (though it's interesting nobody argues against politics, since political institutions have caused just as many, if not more, wars and destruction on earth. Take away religion, and you'll still have politics). But there are plenty of people who believe in God, but do not officially belong to any church and do not buy in to the whole clergy-laity hierarchy...so where's the harm?

If you don't agree with it, or understand it, that's fine. I'm not asking you to agree with anything. But why bemoan the illogicalness of another persons belief if that belief is not harming anyone else? (again, I'm strictly speaking of a belief in god w/o organized religion) If a person's belief in god is psychologically damaging to them, isn't that their problem? Why get in the middle of it? Isn't judging people for believing in God just as wrong as people judging you for not believing in God? (which I'm also against, just for the record).

 

I think that the word "God" itself is what causes this conflict.

The word "God" does stem from organized religion and people cannot help buy associate it with such.

A person that believes in God in a traditional Judeo-Christian sense, but still doesn't believe in the organized religion aspect, is still religious.

While other people believe in all sorts of stuff such as energy, earth, and so on and forth and still label it as "God". This only causes confusion, and kinda opens those people to being attacked by militant atheists.

All in all... religion should not be discussed in the work place.

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

Jorge Dominguez,
CEO Platonic Exports Inc.
Salt Lake City, Utah.

 

This is because a lot of atheists have more of a problem with authority than with religion or superstition specifically.

 

That's exactly how I feel. And I am an atheist. If you want to believe in God or in any religious tradition, I won't bother you about it.

I may joke and ridicule, but I can joke about anything (including my own beliefs). And I do think it's stupid, but I won't try to change your view in any way. I'm not judging you, but the belief.

I also do think political ideology can be just as bad. Ideology in general, in fact. But it matters none at all to me whether you believe in God and not organized religion, or God and organized religion.

It sounds about the same to me, and I don't buy this stuff about organized religion being the cause of historical conflicts. I'm a Marxist and I think the cause of every conflict is material; the ideology serves only to justify the conflict in the minds of the participants.

 

I agree with everything you pointed out. great post.

I don't think any organized religion is "the true religion"... I like to believe that it's based on a personal lever. Try to gather the positive aspects of every religion, as in the end, they're all positive. It's once they're taken to extreme levels that it turns to shit.

And yes! An extremist athiest blasting a moderate religious person is just as bad as those extremist religious crazy people blasting others for not conforming to their way of life.

 

Good points... Except, when someone asks whether or not I believe in god, i won't get into specifics on what I believe in, what I don't believe in, what I consider the idea of god, religion, etc etc etc ...

I'll simply answer that I think I believe in god.

you're right in saying that "god" is used loosely, but for anyone to use that against someone and put them down for it, is wrong.

 

Yes and no.

I don't think you have to belong to an organized religion to believe...

On the other hand, I think God is organized religion (and everything else too.) What exactly does organized religion mean, psychologically? Is it just community? Or is it also conquest?

If it's a problem, it's got to be torn down, but you can't do it unless you know why it's there in the first place. I don't think "God" itself is the problem; I believe and I don't push it on anybody. I could care less what other people believe, so long as they don't force it upon me. Unless what they believe is just true and reality forces it upon me..

 

Well when an atheist criticises someone who believes in God, I think it's more them trying to understand, or really question how someone can believe it. The manner may not always be friendly, but fundamentally, they're really just asking "how/why do you believe in God?".

Which I think is fine, it's good to question, maybe these people will question as well after being confronted. And atheists are a minority, so it's not like religious people need be scared of them, this isn't a serious issue here. Most schools are still religious schools, politicians are all religious, and the general population are mostly religious, it seems a little weak on their part to 'complain' about atheists questioning them when their belief is so strongly intrenched in ever facet of our society.

 

why would being a minority justify treating someone like crap by trashing their personal beliefs?

The idea of god can mean a multitidue of things. There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning anything in life. There are many many athiests who can sit down with religious scholars and have a very good and healthy discussion about theology and philosophy, but just like those extremist right wing christians, extremist athiests aren't reasonable. They are unwilling to try to understand other people's perspectives on how they choose to live their lives.


I'd never puit all athiests in the same category, but man, I sometimes run into a few that are absolutely unwilling to even consider the idea of listening to what others have to say.

There's nothing wrong with getting along with people who have different opinions as your own, but when one group trashes the other person's beliefs, they can't possibly expect the other group to "just let them be cause they're a minority"

 

That's because they've probably heard it all before from school or family, difference between atheists and religious people is that atheists had to break away from religion, so if they no longer want to even listen to what you have to say on the subject, I think it's well justified.

 

Personally, I find a belief in organized religion to be borderline retarded - where as a belief in a god is usually more of just presumptuous.
It really bothers me that many atheists lump spirituality in with religion though.

 

they don't have to listen, all the have to do is be respectful. The problem is (what i think) that some athiests have been brought up in homes that had extremely right wing christian beliefs, which are completely out of wack... Put this together with a schooling system that backed up their parents' crazy beliefs, stopping the child from doing the things normal kids do because of their messed up religious beliefs. This just makes the kid hate the religion that was forced on to him, because of all the garbage that's been fed to him his whole life, and I don't blame him. Therefore, he becomes an athiest, having a really negative idea of what religion is about.

Thing is, not everyone was brought up this way, not everyone views christianity in the messed up ways that these crazy fundamentalist christians do. So to have this kid start blasting everything about christianity is very unfair to those who are willing to discuss different religions or lack of, respecting other people's beliefs.


Not all christians are wacko, and I'd say most (of the ones I've been around) are fine and willing to respect others. So to walk down the street and see someone with a Jesus T-shirt with a "got nails" caption on it, right before he's nailed to the cross, is simply in bad taste and disrespectful to those people who actually think that jesus was pretty cool.


Yeah, it sucks that those wackos brought it to that level, but there actually can be balance and respect for others when it comes to religion (or no religion at all).

 

^ I wasn't brought up in that sort've environment at all and I still resented religion when I first lost faith, and was one of those asshole atheists.
I think that's just the nature of someone once they realize they've been duped, and core beliefs they were taught are false.

 

Hey at least you admit you were one of those "assholes"...

in the end, being an athiest shouldn't justify someone being an asshole. We all believe in different things, and we should respect others.

What some people believe is truth, others think is a fairy tail, and vice versa. there is, however, something called respect, and it should go all around.

I personally don't think it makes any sense to resent religion. But that's just me. I'm not a religious person myself, however, I do think that there is lots of good that can come out of religion if it's taken in that context and not in one of punishment and fear.

 

Well, what I resented was that I was taught to believe in a false system. I was raised Christian, even went to a couple Catholic schools (though I was raised mostly Lutheran). When I first uh converted(?) I saw religion as a defense mechanism from the hard truth of life - one that I was falsely raised to believe in. I think that's where a lot of the problems come in for many 'born again' atheists

 

Heh