Hedonism bad for society? Do we owe society? Hedonists = low life?

I'll take my chances.

One of the weird, paradoxical things about life is that when you combine intelligence, education, and life experience with hedonism, you often end up doing a lot of the same things that tradition and old-fashioned morals tell you to do.

Like, for example, stealing. If you don't break into my house because you think it's wrong, and you think god is going to punish you for it, that's great for me because my house doesn't get broken into. If I don't break into your house because I think there's a good chance I might get caught and I don't want to go to jail, you get the same benefit. It doesn't really matter to you why I decided not to do it.

I think this pattern works because a lot of the old rules evolved from common sense and life experience. The big problem is that facts often change, and traditional values are very slow to adjust. Like, masturbation used to be bad for everyone because a lot of people died in wars and epidemics, and you needed a lot of kids to support you in your old age, so everybody needed to be making babies as fast as they could. Now we have world-wide overpopulation, but some churches still say masturbation is a sin.

This is where hedonism works well. I know that fucking myself on a regular basis is not going to cause any problems for me or anybody else. I do it, I enjoy it, and I don't give a damn what any church says about the practice.

Old views on premarital sex go back to the time before condoms, antibiotics, birth control pills, and safe abortions. The facts changed but the morals didn't. My hedonistic perspective has allowed me to enjoy a higher degree of freedom made possible by the changes that have taken place in the medical world. I enjoy safe sex with multiple consenting adults and don't give a flying fuck how people needed to handle this issue 100 years ago.

One of the big problems I have with so-called divinely inspired books is that God seems to be slack about updating them when the key facts change. Hedonism frees my mind to respond instantly to the latest facts in a world that changes every day.

Even when I decide to handle something the same way that a conservative person would, I feel better about it because I reached the conclusion by using a logical thought process that I respect, rather than letting a bunch of dead people think for me and threaten me with fairytale punishments from the sky.

 

Don't forget the Dutch side of St. Martin. Not as loud as some of the other party islands, but it's still the only place I have ever seen a couple fuck on the beach in front of their kids. The kids paid no attention. I guess when you grow up being used to seeing something that doesn't personally interest you (before puberty), it gets really boring.

What do you think about New Orleans? No American city celebrates hedonism and depravity more. Besides its legendary love for flashing and public drunkenness, the bartenders openly sell drugs, nearly all the strippers are prostitutes, and random people routinely fuck on the sidewalks of the side streets off Bourbon Street. On the other hand, it is a very dangerous and dysfunctional city. Maybe that is an unavoidable consequence of mixing that much hedonism with real life.

Your thoughts?

 

Fuck having a family. Man if you don't want to don't. You don't have a family because you think you own it to society. To you my friend, I say this...



We have these buses in the town where I live

 

Agreed. Having children because you think you have to to help society is ridiculous. Existence precedes essence. You don't come into the world owing anybody anything or having to do anything at all. The belief that you do is unfounded.

Hedonism isn't inherently good or bad for others. What if you derive great joy from helping people? Yeah it would be really great if everyone HAD to be good, help others and never hurt others, but then that would mean that they didn't have a choice, and they do.

 

in my neck of the woods, if you don't want to pop out crotch dropping, you must be a horrible inhumane person.

 

I'd move.

 

If you think that having a child is a good way to make the world aren't you better you must be mentally handicapped. Having a child doesn't serve anyone except for you. There are thousands of better uses of a senselessly altruisistic person's time.

 

Oh god, sounds like Christian bs. Having a child doesn't serve anyone except for you. There are literally thousands of better ways to make the world a better place. Having a child and then condemning those who don't is just what half-wits do to make themselves feel better about their useless lives.

 

One word: Overpopulation. Fuck having kids. Having kids benefits no one but yourself, and even then, only if you want them.

 

If I want to have kids even though it hurts society that's fine too. That we have some sort of obligation to do what's good for society or our existence comes with any stipulations is ridiculous. Anyone who thinks that other people have to or should do anything is ridiculous. If someone is able to rationalize that by not having kids they're helping others, all the power to them. Conversely if they think that by having kids they're helping others, all the power to them too, however they're delusional and if they tell me that I have to have kids, that's where I draw the line.

Existence precedes essence. For fuck's sake.

 

:cheers2: Exactly.

/thread

 

I'm not even concerned with overpopulation. If not having a child would help society but I wanted to have a child I would have a child. I just think that it's ridiculous and very arrogant to expect somebody to be unrealistically altruistic enough to either have a child when they don't want to or not have a child when they want to. If somebody doesn't do what they want to with their life they've lost my respect. Although the overpopulation argument is a really good one even amongst non existentialists, but I wouldn't use it to rationalize not having a child. There's no need to rationalize following your heart.

 

I think there are arguments against hedonism, but those aren't good ones., especially the second one.

 

A hedonist can do things that are good for society or others because it brings them pleasure. And a hedonist can keep from doing something that's bad for society because it brings them pain.

Either way they both state that "this is what you have to do because... and or else..." but then never elaborate on what those things are. That somebody should cause themselves needless pain or abstain from pleasure for no good reason is a terrible argument.

 

That somebody's role is to contribute another mouth to feed "for the sake of society" is likewise pretty stupid. Yes, someone has to do it, but it's hardly a disaster if a few people don't.

 

Nobody has to do anything in particular. Worst case scenario there's no more humanity. If knowing that there won't be any more humans doesn't bother you and you don't want children then there's no reason to have any.

 

We're a hell of a long way from needing to worry about that sort of thing. Talk to me about recruiting more mothers when we have a too-small and rapidly shrinking population, not before.

If that ever happens, I won't be alive to know it, so why should I give a damn? I really don't think about it.

 

Heh true that. The only reason to care about how the world is AFTER you die is if you have children.

 

I think of having children as sort of a vote of confidence in the future. If you think the future is going to suck, why force somebody to live through it? There are billions of people who will have to deal with all the terrible shit that is likely to be going on 40 years from now, but it won't be my fault. Nobody will be able to say I'm responsible for their being subjected to all that stuff.

 

Because you think they could contribute to making it better?

I think the thing that worries some people, possibly legitimately, is not that people will die out, but that intelligent and/or thoughtful people will stop breeding and (more importantly) raising children. It seems snobbish I suppose, but essentially they're worried that future generations will be raised by assholes and idiots while the nice and smart people are refusing to bring another life into such an awful world or whatever.