Schizophrenia - Who's reality is it anyway?

I have been diagnosed with schizophrenia 2 years ago; I am a 23 years old male.

My issue with being called Schizophrenia .. or a problem I have with the topic of reality is quite straight forward ... my question is who is to say my reality isn't the correct one and the other persons is?

Here are a major problem I have encountered

Person A : In my world .. there is no such thing as war or violence; only people loving each other .. I do not believe in Presidents/Kings or Queens

Person B: Well in my world there is War; Violence and hatred ... and I have a president and we are going to be at war with more of the middle east!

Person C: I agree with person B; they obviously know what reality is .. Person A must be crazy to not believe he doesn't have a President or Kings and Queens in their world!

(Now at this point .. Person B and Person C share a reality and therefore outnumber Person A)

Person A: I do not see the Presidents that you see; I do not see the war and violence that you see .. I have never seen such things .. I have only heard of them thru 99% of other people and via the Media

+Person B+C: if you do not see the violence we see thru the Media then you must be crazy! and given medication until you see the violence that we see!+

A schizophrenic is outnumbered by 99 to 1 in all cases worldwide about their reality being the real reality .. and being the minority they are classified as being wrong.

Two quotes to keep in mind ...

Mahatma Gandhi: "Even if you are a minority of one, the true is still the truth"
Jiddu Krishnamurti: “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

It does not what 1% of the population actually think reality is - they are outnumbered by 99% of the population

and if they decide to voice their reality .. they are instantly(in most cases) given drugs which have terrible side-effects which also change the brain chemistry of the human-being to fit in with the 99% of the world. which to me is completely insane. these drugs are in most cases not safe under any circumstances and are indeed harmful

It would seem to me that if someone is intelligent enough to argue this issue of reality to any medical professional - then they cannot be schizophrenic

The problem arises when the schizophrenic has no-one else to back their reality up ...

lets turn this argument on its head; 99% of the world are schizophrenics and believe that they are all giant cookies waiting for a hand to reach down from heaven to eat them... now 1% of the population are scientists, doctors, lawyers -

whose reality is the real reality? is it because 99% of the population believes they are giant cookies the correct reality? of the sheer majority believing it?

I would also note that there is a large minority of people out there of 'conspiracy theorists' out there who believe in Mind Control via media; aliens; different realities etc etc

since they are a majority .. they are not schizophrenics but conspiracy theorists? is a large gathering of schizophrenics conspiracy theorists?

It would seem to me that there is no such thing as Schizophrenia; but to those well adjusted to a already sick society .. anyone not adjusted to this way of life is indeed mentally insane.

also keep in mind that The Buddha had his own ideas about what constitutes mental health, and by his definition anyone who isn’t well on the way to Enlightenment is insane.(e.g stuck in the illusion of sex; money; power etc)

 

You are missing a key point.

Person B & C have a shared experience. Humans are social by nature, we rely on each other for input - including input on our reality. This has manifested much in our society and one of those manifestations is psychology.
Some of it is more debatable than others. There are definitely certain theories that have strong support that are not nearly as solid as believers say (this is true of any scientific field - fossil fuels have still not been proven, for instance.) And I wanted to assure you that I am coming from a standpoint that recognizes this, and a likewise curious mind.

Now, back to the matter at hand. Those 99% can verify their shared experiences. Over time, they have discovered more about the world, and updated their beliefs - uncovered a little bit more of the absolute truth and had to correct previous assumptions. They will do this again and again. This does not mean that they do not know truth. It means they do not know the full truth.

And we will always be limited to our perceptions - maybe so much so that we will never find the full truth (I'd sure take that bet). This again, does not take away from verifiable and consistent truths that we have found. People have been making fire for millennia - the formula never changed - though we know more about the formula now (we have since it's discovery been able to give it names, like friction, heat, energy)

However, schizophrenics each have their own reality - completely unverifiable outside of their mind - even among other schizophrenics. Yet these separate realities, still have the same basic trademarks and have been linked to the same causes.

And this is not even bringing up that the existence of schizophrenia is verifiable, through genetics/hereditary studies, through neurological studies, through psychological testing and case studies, etc etc.

Philosophically; anything can be argued however, we live in the physical world - not the world of thought.

 

I see where you are coming from for everything you have said here however at the end when you say "we live in the phsyical world - not the world of thought"

I would like to note that without thought ...your physical world would not exist; thought is the mechanical process which allows you to understand the world around you as physical and experience it as such

 

That's both true and untrue. Without though, I would not be able to perceive my physical world. Rocks exist just fine without thought.

I do agree that the sentence seems to undermine thought a little bit, but that wasn't my intention. I recognize fully that perception is (at least) 90% of human life and that has been the key to my own therapy (GAD).

Just out of curiosity, what have been your experiences with it?

 

lol my experiences with thought or schizophrenia???

My journey with schizophrenia has been quite a stupid one ... it all started 2 christmases ago .. when I was talking rubbish and being all philosophical as usual ... and then I was forced to the hospital for talking such nonsense(freedom of speech comes at a price.. it is not free at all) and a bunch of doctors said the wanted to keep me in for atleast a week (2 weeks later I had a trip to Israel) and I said "FUCK THAT!!!" and ran outta the building .. they caught me ..about 6 of them and injected me with some traq and put me beside the really crazy people ...

that was no.1

No.2 again same story .. but this time when I was taken .. they said I was schizophrenic and I argued the point that reality is very subjective etc etc etc and they wanted to put me on meds which I refused ...got out like a month later.. because i refused to see I was schizophrenic and wouldn't take the pills (During this whole time i had to tell my work what had happened .. so I didn't get fired .. but when your boss knows your crazy .. your whole relationship changes with them)

the third and final visit - I was quite stressed one day .. so i started talkin about philosophical again .. and I was taken once again to the hospital .. this time I was forced medication and was watched that I took them everytime ..they assigned me some community worker who watched me twice a week ... the people around me monitored my intake of unpredictable medication with lots of side effects .. a month later .. My work fired me; I left the people around me .. (they didn't get me .. they just took me to the mental house) and I left the country for a while ... gradually stoppped taking the pills and ive been fine every since ive been away from the environment I was in ..

I think environment and the people you are around influence everything more so than some chemical balance in your brain.

 

So like, when you talk philosophical - is that it, are you just talking philosophical and annoying people with it?

Or do you sometimes get rambly and incoherent and whatnot?

 

These drugs to have terrible side effects, but they ease perception and although this may not be enough of a benefit to you, some people with schizophrenia suffer very negatively too. I am a carer for my sister who has schizophrenia and I can't tell you the relief we experienced when she was finally given a diagnosis. She has suffered from hallucinations and delusions that were so severe that if it wasn't for these medications then she might not even be here today. It doesn't bear thinking about. For her, these medications weren't prescribed to alter her thoughts process to fit in with the majority, they were prescribed to make life easier to live. It's just unfortunate that these drugs do carry a bunch of shite side effects, as you said. She hasn't suffered an episode recently and her drug intake has come right down. She's actually only on one medication at the moment, she came off another which supressed her emotions and feelings (which obviously is a terrible drug to have to take) and she's currently happy to be taking the tablets that she does. Perhaps one day she won't need the medication at all, and will be able to live with the side effects of schizophrenia and only suffer mild episodes. I think if you find that you aren't comfortable on the medication you take, and you find it supresses your thoughts, feelings and emotions etc more than you can bear and you don't feel the benefits, then you need to talk to your doctor about altering your dose. Eg. More, less, something else.. It may well be that those drugs that make you feel as shit as they do are still the best things you could be taking at that time. But these drugs really aren't there to make you 'fit in' with everyone else, they're to make things easier for the sufferer and for those involved.

Perhaps a person who is colour blind claims that a tree is red. In reality, that tree is green and we know that that persons perception is altered. Lots of people are wrong about things lots of the time. There are many truths we won't ever uncover or understand. You made a good point when you quoted the argument of B & C accusing the argument of A being crazy, having witnessed the events in the media. We do depend on media and society for the knowledge that we believe. Benjamin Franklin said 'nothing is certain but death and taxes.' It's a good quote. Beyond that, we have to make the best of what we can, and it involves listening to people and information that can offer us greater knowledge. The truth is still the truth.

 

But what philosophical things were you saying? If you were forced into the hospital, were you sectioned? If so, these people only section you if they think you need to be. If you could be a danger to yourself or anyone else because you're suffering delusions and hallucinations then that's why they do it. I mean, you may have been completely fine anyway, and literally just speaking your mind.. But the people who contributed in your diagnosis and treatment had a reason to do the things that they did.. Even if they were wrong.

Anyway, whatever happened to you Sebastunes, I feel sorry that you had to go through all of that.. It's certainly not a nice thing to experience, and especially not if you don't feel the care benefited you. I hope things get much better.

 

goddess love wanti and nirvana

even the most superflous rambling has a cause and purpose dissectable form the nonduality inherent in the sun at the core of our planet, indeed it is low but high and never understandable becuase in life we move only to house ourselves in moments, and moments are the currency of survival and freedom. You see, its bullshit, which is the first alchemical reference fumbling once again down the roots tunnel they found was the trunk. Where having created this philosophers stone I lay down what is not mine, that is life and the endless doings, for the black hole, I do this. The black hole of my love. In the fairy tradition, that is actually the belief in ones self, and ones own dreams, can be found the hesitancy to speak, by nature they are meek beings, because so engrossed in the infinite possibilities of the astral realms one comes to be nested upon this plane. After several hours of meditation, I found myself in the acclaimed heaven of gold. But realized it is so named only because of christian influence which by far is a spiritual thing, embedded in most of our very minds from a young age, these paradigm is a matter of dna working in the external world, just as all systems of synchronicity and spiritual paths are, they make whole what was before nothing, the poetry comes, confusing and dulling meaning, and distinction until all is left is the artistic notion, the creative spark, indeed this is everything, like in one moment there can be no sense but over time it springs forth from the wound caused by a static reality. The universe is trying to heal itself of this slow moving anticipation but on an infinite level, where the healing is in fact the cause of the illness, to truly cure any sickness, we must either cease to live in time, that is become late and early for all events, even this one, OR
we must accept that there is no time even though a perception of time occurs. To do this is to enter Wanti and to name your own reality. But one would say it is already named, certainly as Wanti and to name your own reality, this is where the genetic pattern comes up, realizing that you manifest these words as they are written, this is a first hand truth of you the writer, who speaks in higher form through dreams and through the coincidence, i.e. intersecting with the spiritual dimension.
those who act in the world dramas, learned through movies and stories do not know what they do, just as fire does not know what it does, or water. But all in all to say, a run out on the peir in a complete random outburst is it the gift of the unknowable or a curse from underneath fred's flower basket?

(here we ascend into the unworded territory of the schizophrenic mind)

Know that this is you and forget health, beyond a book, is the soul which guides the mind here, as the drums thump and clatter, the double, intertwined soul has been physically removed and yet psychically bonded. Past all immature and quickly formed notions of, good and bad and the comments of the audience, one's unconscious lower self, rocking through the ecstasies of life, guiding by you, on must become undone. Rejecting any fundamental truth I found the Pomo ironically surrounded by the familiar symbols of divinity known to schools and academia. How did this occur? A translation of all languages, the speaking trees, the writings in the bark which can indeed be understood again BEYOND words. Though to half this will appear a mirage, those who Believe, will find a greater happiness in Alonity, in a growing Ness. again the unfamiliar terms merely homes for a meditation, the yonato, earthy home in ones self, where by I as a sister reach back to those who live in the letters, those before lettering.

It is lettering, the symbol that is sometimes full, and sometimes empty. it is the context.

 

I too agree; as a philosophy major who used to smoke too much pot, I prefer the real world now. :cheers2: Ask a real schizophrenic and they won't tell you they enjoy being crazy. They're depressed, feel isolated. It's not pretty. However much you want to argue, let's face it: being stuck in your own mind is very scary. I've been there.

And look at it this way: reality for mentally healthy people is uniform and consistent (for everyone, minus some perceptual changes such as color-blindness, deafness, etc...). If there is a tree, everyone will see a tree.

Now, take a schizophrenic. Take a group, actually. They don't see things uniformly. All patterns of thought and perception are different. It's like two people who are high experiencing completely different things. I don't know what it's like to be schizo (not pleasant I imagine) but if your mind is as garbled as they say, no two people should be experiencing the same perception of the world.

COUNTER ARGUMENT: but they DO experience the same things from the standpoint of the medical condition known as schizophrenia. Their perceptions are common--all schizophrenics see things in a similar way, just as mentally healthy (if there is such a thing, pardon me; let's call them non-schizo) have the same perception.

HAHA. what do we get, then? two different realities, one problem--both are common to a certain group of people.
really, i feel like i am at school.

ok well, im still thinking.. but if anyone can come up with a good counter-counter argument, please!

 

i think this entire question is just resulting from the (flawed) belief that there is a fixed reality that is "truth", and that everything within this so called truth is real and everything outside of it is not real. that's not the case, real and not real don't exist, they're just structures we've made up. where is this "line" between the two?

it all boils down to the fact that everyone shares a relatively common experience, and those people who reside too far outside of this agreed upon experience and are maladjusted and isolated are therefore ill. that's the extent of it, really.

after that all the philosophy is bullshit and beside the point. if you can't adjust to the reality around you which is everyone elses reality, you're ill. whether you're "more able" to sense something "higher" or whatever is pretty irrelevant and is mostly personal, but it all comes after the recognition that if you're not adjusted, you're just not adjusted period. rightness comes secondary and is debatable anyway, and follows the same guidelines that it would follow if illness wasn't a factor so who cares?

 

:icon_bs:

What's not to understand about 'real' and 'unreal'? Structures we've made up? A schizophrenic might see blue spiders crawling on someones head. They might hear a man telling them to do the limbo when there isn't anyone else in the room. "Well mate, I really can't see any blue spiders on my head and I definitely can't feel them, but if you say they're there then I dunno, maybe they are!" Can you see the huge flaw in your concept yet?

Schizophrenia IS an illness. My sister is schizophrenic and the idea that we have issues with her concept of reality for anything other than her own health is ridiculous. Fact is schizophrenia can be dangerous. I spent a year dragging her off train tracks, away from bridges and away from motor ways because some man in her head told her that death was her destiny. The man in her head was definitely NOT REAL! Even when she wasn't contemplating suicide life was hard for her when she was suffering all these hallucinations. There were times that she'd see a person and not even know if that person was part of her imagination or not. Nobody wants that.

Sorry mate but you're whole argument is a load of tosh.

 

you've totally misunderstood me... or maybe i wasn't being very clear, i dunno.

i never meant to suggest that schizophrenia isn't an illness... i'm not making any comments about the desirability or how "nice" it is to be schizophrenic. i'm terribly sorry about your sister but that has nothing to do with what i'm saying.

there seems to be this recurring idea that there is a "true reality" that is beyond ourselves. where is this reality you speak of? what does it exist in?

i think the obvious answer is that reality isn't separate or distinct. reality is the collective awareness which we all share. reality is in us, it isn't something to "find" or anything like that. reality comes WITH us, it is OF us, it does not exist before, after, or outside of us. the schizophrenic, simply put, has perceptions which are not shared by most people, and they can not functionally adjust to our reality and are therefore ill, period. their reality is not our reality, and for the simple fact that they are "not with it", they are experiencing what i guess you could call a false reality.

whether or not they are more "right" or less "right", more "of worth" is really secondary. in truth, many pioneers and geniuses have been very quirky and slightly mad, and the line is admittedly pretty thin. but the difference is the ability to make the "new thought" (which is NOT the same as true reality and has nothing to do with truth) something that can be of use to most people.

and to the two quotes provided by the OP, those are simply saying that rightness is not necessarily defined by the majority, rather the majority simply indicates what most people have chosen to believe, and that's it. that DOES make it truth, and does make it reality, but doesn't make it the "right thing" or the "correct path", which is a separate discussion from what i understand your post to be presenting.

i fully understand the devastation of mental illness, and i would never suggest that the schizophrenic "knows more truth", because for the fact that they can't adjust, they aren't with reality. calling their illness "higher awareness" is, to be honest, a dangerous suggestion and can prevent/complicate the person getting help for what is, beyond else, an extremely difficult and lonely condition.

 

" i must be psychotic then?.... or schizophrenic?"
"i think not..."
"but maybe i am!..."
"NO!!! you definitely are NOT!!! it's just a label.... maybe this link will help explain a little more..."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEglHjd_gUQ&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

 

sorry... found another link that would be useful/helpful in expressing what i feel personally on the subject of schizophrenia...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1tMrwvbosw

 

I think a person has the right to experience and learn from whatever they want to experience, as long as they do this safely. The argument that it's dangerous just to have your own reality is not viable. Some "schizophrenics"...just explorers...absolutely vital and necessary to our survival as a species. Some schizophrenics...just people who are tortured. It's their right to take medicine and feel well.

 

well, if a person can explore and travel new grounds without losing their grip on reality and while showing some sense of productivity and development, they're not schizophrenic... maybe just a little quirky. the whole idea behind schizophrenia as a mental "illness" is that the person is maladjusted and can't adequately handle living on a day to day level. the difference is pretty key and is what defines schizophrenia, from what i understand.

it's hard to really say though, psychiatry is a pretty corrupt business itself so the more people they get to call schizophrenic, the more drugs they can push. only the most severe cases of alternative functioning are probably actually qualified as an illness.

 

Yeah

 

Your just 'stuck in transition'. Your physical is on this earthly plane, and your mental is still on the other side. Your split and not functioning as a whole.

Get Thee to a Healer, a Shauman, Medicineman, Guru, and take the Journey Of Rebirth. Follow the Path Of The Peyote. Find the bridge that closes the gap between the two realities and be fully conscious in one or the other.


You cannot bring The Other Side here. East is East, West is West and never the two shall meet. You cannot be in two places at one time and expect to fit in either one of them fully.

It's like having an out of body experience, your there mentally, but your physical Being is not present and is dysfunctional, and vise versa.

Blessings on your journey
sh

 

there's no such thing as two realities... what's here is here. what IS, IS.

you can make it as big or as small as you want.