Finding reasons to believe

If there is a god he doesn't seem to be trying too hard to make his presence known. I read the bible and I find things like Genesis to be preposterous, and Noah's Ark even more so. No reasonable person should be expected to accept that the story of the Ark is literally true.

So the bible doesn't seem to provide a good argument for thinking that the god of Abraham is real. Observing nature itself doesn't seem to offer any evidence either. If I had to observe the world and derive from my observations the characteristics of the world's creator I would think the creator was indifferent at best and sadistic at worst, but the god of Abraham is supposed to be neither. The world abounds with tragic indifference and horrible suffering from viruses that kill mindlessly, to cheetahs ripping apart gazelle, to wasps laying eggs in still living victims to be eaten alive from the inside.

How can any reasonable person be held accountable for not believing in god? I ask because I have been told by many people that living a good life is not enough, that one must accept the god of Abraham as the one true god, and accept Jesus as savior in order to go to heaven.

 

Why do you believe that it can't be literally true? If every kind of animal equaled to ten thousand then could that fit in the ark? If God, the instructor, instructed Noah how to do such a thing do you believe that God with his attributes would not be able to do so?

Why do you feel this way?

Lion's only eat every so often, and as the Bible points out, this was not so in the Garden of Eden. At the very least, it seems that the Bible is very honest concern man's suffering, nature of animals, and the nature of death (while most religions say that when we die, we continue on living). That may be a reason to pay more attention to the Bible as to why it may hold truth.

The God of the Bible asks us to stay away from behaviors that would lead to what you say, such as wasps laying eggs in still living victims.

Most animal documentaries are created in a way to suggest a story of life and death and sex. They wait years to collect enough footage to show crocodiles eating gazelle, but they only eat once in every few months. Most of the time they are basically chilling out... which is why I enjoy documentaries that exposes the peace of nature because it is that way much of the time.

Depends on what you mean by reasonable. There are plenty of reasonable theists, for example. Also, it isn't that you are being 'held accountable'. It's not like you will go to a fiery pit if you deny God's existence because it's a simple matter of what the word Sheol means in the Bible.

The matter of accepting Jesus as a savior in order to go to Heaven is more complicated than many Christians will explain to you.

My only real suggestion to you is to see for yourself if what is said in the Bible makes sense to you or not. Look at all the angles and don't accept anyone's position while being ready to accept all possibilities.

But in my personal experience, while the Bible doesn't hold any absolute proofs, it does point out that absolute proof isn't possible or necessary but it does say that there will be various evidence pointing to the truth.

 

There is no possibility that Noah put two of every kind of animal on the ark. There are so many reasons why this is so, and they should be so obvious that I will not waste my time stating them. I can't even respond to the statement that "lions only eat every so often." That statement does nothing to demonstrate that the state of nature would lead a reasonable observer to the conclusion that the god of Abraham is real. Also the statement that "The God of the Bible asks us to stay away from behaviors that would lead to what you say, such as wasps laying eggs in still living victims" doesn't make any sense to me. Regardless of my behavior wasps will lay eggs in still living victims to be eaten alive from the inside. In summary zeppelin, I have no idea what you are talking about or how it relates to my questions.

 

What the hell is a cubit?..

..

 

What I am saying is that Noah could have added various kinds of animals on the ark and those various kinds could have been in the thousands and not millions, enough to fit on the Ark. And since it was God that instructed Noah, God would know how to better manage resources. That those thousands of kinds brought about the millions of species that we see today because each kind had in it the information required to create those various species.

The idea is that when sin was brought into the world, it caused the conditions that you brought up. The fact that the Bible points this out is interesting to me. You were saying how nature of animals is pretty ruthless but I was trying to point out that it isn't as ruthless as you seem to think it is because it seems overall peaceful to me - It is my contention that no life would exist as it does without the existence of pleasure and pain.


You don't want to go into it with me. That seems like you aren't open enough to see why this may be true.

 

Zeppelin I can't understand your reasoning on the story of the Ark. He could not have fit thousands of animals on that small Ark. The bible tells us that animals are aboriginal creations, and does not say anything about more animals being created after the flood. Furthermore the geographical distribution of living animals does not in anyway support the story of the Ark.

I can not at all accept the idea that nature is overall peaceful, and I am not basing this on nature documentaries. This world is predatory to the maximum and full of indifference. What can be more indifferent than viruses? They are not even alive, they do not enjoy the world themselves or add any beauty or goodness to it, yet they kill ruthlessly. The idea that nature is peaceful because crocodiles don't eat often is just silly to me. Even the world of plants is full of predation and indifference.

You accuse me of not being open minded, but I will forgive that because you don't know anything about me at all. I do not speak to win arguments, I speak to find truth. The fact is I read scripture and I pray to god to reveal himself to me. A very good friend of mine runs a christian group at the university I attended and I write her letters asking her to help me connect with god. But I can't just choose to believe in him. Certainly he wants us to use reason if he gave it to us, but I cannot through reason arrive at the conclusion that the god of Abraham is real.

 

So far I have been called closed minded and arrogant but no one has tried to seriously address the issue that I raised. I asked my question because I don't know the answer. What is arrogant about admitting that you don't know something and asking for help?

 

Hi Emanresu! Even tho I am a long time believer, during the years I have had periods of time where my own questions have plagued me. So I can certainly appreciate a person that has sincere questions. As far as believing Genesis or the Old Testament overall literally - I do. However, it takes a leap of faith. That being said, in viewing all of the "strange and mysterious things" technology makes available to everybody (not even counting the extra special things the military and similar can get hold of) - I don't find the claims of the bible to be so far fetched as many seem to find them.

I also feel that you are being drawn to the Lord, or you would not be asking these questions and seeking discussion and answers. I furthur believe that when God "wants" you, you will be faced with internal questions and He will definitely knock at your door, so to say...such as He seems to be now.

I pray that you find the answers, help you seek/need.

God bless

 

I only said what I said because I gave my explanation and you told me that it wasn't worth going into. Not that you are closed minded. But reading back at what I said, I could have been more tactful with my reply. I was trying to go into how the Noah's Ark story could be possible but it seemed like you had your mind set on the subject already. From reading what you said, I know that it's too early to make a leap of faith like this, so instead I'll say that it'll be useful for you to look into the meanings behind each event that occurs in the Bible.

When you read the Bible, did you go further into why exactly God did what he did and why the people written about followed along with what they did? As in, "Does God support all actions ever made in the Bible or just some? And how do we know which?" The Bible reveals God's plan and his intention for us as well as his nature and ours. The Bible requires a deeper look into and it MUST be taken as a whole rather than it's parts otherwise the real miracle of the Bible cannot be revealed.

Even if you can't accept the stories in the Bible as being true, it will still be useful to analyze its meaning. The morals of the stories is the most important aspect even if the theology of it is also important. But focus on the moral of it, and try to apply much of it to your daily life to see if what it says is true. The Bible seeks to free people from the mental and spiritual wilderness that we can get lost in... it seems to be the main focus. Applying these morals to your life can get you to 'see' God and it can create faith. (God of the Bible and Jesus often mention creating faith).

But if you want to know more about God, I recommend looking into other belief systems and compare them to each other. Gain a deeper understanding of them all and as the time goes by and you become more familiar with these understandings then it may reveal to you something, such as an absolute morality. Like most have said, "all religions point to the same thing" and consider why that is.

I recommend http://deoxy.org/watts.htm (Alan Watts), Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Viktor Frankl.

Also, look into the science behind consciousness and religious experiences; some neurologists believe that our brains could have been built as an antenna to receive messages from God... Look deeper into that and have more respect for the religious experiences and ask why this is.

 

CUBIT

A linear measure roughly corresponding to the distance from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger. (De 3:11) There are indications that the Israelites commonly used a cubit of about 44.5 cm (17.5 in.), and calculations in this publication are figured accordingly. The Siloam Inscription, for instance, gives 1,200 cubits as the length of the water tunnel built by King Hezekiah. According to modern measurements, this tunnel is 533 m (1,749 ft) long. Thus, when taken at face value, these figures yield a cubit of 44.4 cm (17.49 in.). Also, numerous buildings and enclosures excavated in Palestine can be measured in whole numbers of this unit, giving further basis for reckoning the cubit at about 44.5 cm (17.5 in.).

Evidently the Israelites also used a larger cubit that was one handbreadth (7.4 cm; 2.9 in.) longer than the “common” cubit. This larger cubit of about 51.8 cm (20.4 in.) figured in the measurements of Ezekiel’s visionary temple. (Eze 40:5) There may also have been a short cubit of about 38 cm (15 in.), measured from the elbow to the knuckles of the clenched hand.

 

The ark was not so small, it was a rectangular chestlike vessel presumably having square corners and a flat bottom. It needed no rounded bottom or sharp bow to cut rapidly through the water; it required no steering; its only functions were to be watertight and to stay afloat. A vessel so shaped is very stable, cannot be easily capsized, and contains about one third more storage space than ships of conventional design. There was a door provided in the side of the ark for loading and unloading the cargo.

In size the ark was 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide, and 30 cubits high. Conservatively calculating the cubit as 44.5 cm (17.5 in.) (some think the ancient cubit was nearer 56 or 61 cm), the ark measured 133.5 m by 22.3 m by 13.4 m (437 ft 6 in. × 72 ft 11 in. × 43 ft 9 in.), less than half the length of the ocean liner Queen Elizabeth 2. This proportion of length to width (6 to 1) is used by modern naval architects. This gave the ark approximately 40,000 cu m (1,400,000 cu ft) in gross volume. It is estimated that such a vessel would have a displacement nearly equal to that of the mighty 269-m (883 ft) Titanic of this 20th century. No cargo vessel of ancient times even slightly resembled the ark in its colossal size. Internally strengthened by adding two floors, the three decks thus provided gave a total of about 8,900 sq m (96,000 sq ft) of space.

Ample Carrying Capacity.
The passenger list of the ark was quite impressive. Besides Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives, living creatures “of every sort of flesh, two of each,” were to be taken aboard. “Male and female they will be. Of the flying creatures according to their kinds and of the domestic animals according to their kinds, of all moving animals of the ground according to their kinds, two of each will go in there to you to preserve them alive.” Of the clean beasts and fowls, seven of each kind were to be taken. A great quantity and variety of food for all these creatures, to last for more than a year, also had to be stowed away.—Ge 6:18-21; 7:2, 3.

The “kinds” of animals selected had reference to the clear-cut and unalterable boundaries or limits set by the Creator, within which boundaries creatures are capable of breeding “according to their kinds.” It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family “kinds”—the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. The breeding boundaries according to “kind” established by Jehovah were not and could not be crossed. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 “kinds” of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird “kinds” were all that were required. That the great variety of animal life known today could have come from inbreeding within so few “kinds” following the Flood is proved by the endless variety of humankind—short, tall, fat, thin, with countless variations in the color of hair, eyes, and skin—all of whom sprang from the one family of Noah.

These estimates may seem too restrictive to some, especially since such sources as The Encyclopedia Americana indicate that there are upwards of 1,300,000 species of animals. (1977, Vol. 1, pp. 859-873) However, over 60 percent of these are insects. Breaking these figures down further, of the 24,000 amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals, 10,000 are birds, 9,000 are reptiles and amphibians, many of which could have survived outside the ark, and only 5,000 are mammals, including whales and porpoises, which would have also remained outside the ark. Other researchers estimate that there are only about 290 species of land mammals larger than sheep and about 1,360 smaller than rats. (The Deluge Story in Stone, by B. C. Nelson, 1949, p. 156; The Flood in the Light of the Bible, Geology, and Archaeology, by A. M. Rehwinkel, 1957, p. 69) So, even if estimates are based on these expanded figures, the ark could easily have accommodated a pair of all these animals.

 

I believe "burning in hell" is one of Satan's tools to turn people away from God and it is something God has no desire to do and will not do.

 

For someone who says he is looking for reasons to believe, it looks like to me that you have mostly been looking for reasons not to believe.

 

Noah's Ark replica: http://www.arkvannoach.com/index.php/en/photobook/category/2-de-ark

 

This Ark seems a little on the small size, if that is a full grown giraffe on deck, it should be about 17' tall and the height of the Ark is 43 ft 9 in or approximately 2.5 times the height of the giraffe and this ark is not. Beside what's with the curved bow and stern, after all the original Ark wasn't going anywhere.

 

The responses I have read here have made me lose hope of ever finding reasons to believe. I am starting to feel like the past year that I have spent reading scripture and praying to know god and Jesus have been a waste, and I don't think I am going to try any more. There may be a god but I think the bible doesn't have anything to do with him.

 

For someone who says he is looking for reasons to believe, it looks like to me that you have mostly been looking for reasons not to believe and it seems you've found them.

You say you've spent a year reading Scripture and praying to God and Jesus.

Okay, tell me who they are, describe them to me.

 

lol, true dat. It's not such a good replica, but it gives some idea about how it looked inside and how everything was managed.

God is a very good decorator

 

My two cents:

I agree on the Noah's Ark account. I do not believe God meant this to be taken literally by all generations. It served an amazing purpose when the anceint Hebrews had to compete their theology amongst other Near Eastern theologies. The others felt that the Gods frequently grew angry at all humans and we had to "appease" them, or that some people managed to survive great floods. YHWH comes to Noah to save him and to repopulate the world because he was sorry he made humans because of what they become. The Hebrews had a god who loved humanity, the others did not. This is what the story tells us (among other things). YWHW is a saving God, a theme that is repeated continuously through Scripture (known as Salvation History)

If you accept the ideas in Genesis 1 and 2 about the Fall, then God is not sadistic in any way, because as the theory goes death come into the world through Adam.

If you are like myself and do not constrict yourself to a scientifically concordant reading of Scripture where it was not intended, then it becomes more difficult. then you have to accept that death and suffering have purposes. through death, we gain life. It is one of the realities of the world. It is a hard reality, but it is true. Animals die so others may live (even for us). Christ died so that we may be reconciled with God and have eternal life. Even we must dies before we are welcomed into the fullness of life!

Suffering also has its place in our lives.

Yes, everyone will be held accountable.

one does not "go to" heaven, one is accepted into heaven by God. If we cut ourselves off from god in this life, we will be cut off in the life to come.

 

You mention all the negatives you see with the world but you don't mention all the goodness and beauty in the world.

Have you ever seen the movie "Life is Beautiful"? Yeah, life can be tragic and horrific, but there is always that glimpse of light in the distance.

Christ's gruesome death followed shortly by his ressurection represents this dichotomy well I think.

My experience in life is that it is mainly good. Most of the people I meet are good. Maybe I'm just an optimist.