interesting note on shamanism and entheogens

so i was reading this book today on the ritual use of hallucinogens(i don't remember the title offhand but i'll post back when i've found it again), and i came across something interesting about shamans...when talking about their use of ayahuasca, they said that the experience was NOT enjoyable, and in fact was usually very uncomfortable.

they went on to say that they have to suffer through these visions, that it was necessary in order to attain their insight. but very few of them actually enjoy the experience.

that was interesting to me, i never really considered that the experience might be unpleasant to such "masters" and travelers of the spiritual world.

i know this isn't *exactly* related to LSD, but let's be honest, this has turned into the main subforum for psychedelic discussion in general... but in the interest of staying relatively on topic- do you think that this is simply the nature of ayahuasca (for people who have done it)? that aya is by nature difficult? do you think this is the same for other psychedelics?

i know that my most profound LSD trip was also my most difficult, and there were moments of extreme euphoria but much of the trip was very jarring and forceful, but i can't say i didn't "enjoy" it overall.

when do you "enjoy" trips? when they produce euphoria, "good visuals", when your thoughts get wacky, or when you learn something? not good trip/bad trip, but actually enjoy.

 

I think that it has to do with Ayahuasca in particular, and with the cultural beliefs of the shamans as well. If you know that what you're doing is encountering gods and they are teaching you cruel lessons or what have you, that will affect whether you enjoy it or not. Your cultural background tells you psychedelics are fun, amazing tools for pleasure and knowledge, so you tend to enjoy them when you use them.

"Enjoy" is a verb like "love". There are no criteria for it, you just enjoy it, on a deep primal pre-mind level, and then after the fact you think of reasons why you enjoy it.

But definetely has to do with aya man. i can only extrapolate from my smoked dmt experience but i can't imagine being "there" for hours while having strong body reactions and also being on a strong maoi, tobacco, what have you. It's a very dense experience, very heavy. Not recreational by any stretch.

 

when do you "enjoy" trips? when they produce euphoria, "good visuals", when your thoughts get wacky, or when you learn something? not good trip/bad trip, but actually enjoy.[/QUOTE]

I enjoy all of that when Im taking LSD!:cheers2:

 

I generally enjoy my trips, but there are also usually moments of sheer overwhelming terror. I enjoy it in the fact that I'm floating through all these different states of consciousness, different visuals, different thoughts paths, but it's never recreational in the same way as opium or alcohol. But I love the variety and wouldn't have my trips any other way.

 

the closest time i got to scary or negative (aside from mushroom trips which send me into my head) was when i lost all control and my ego on dmt...and i will say that was one of the most spiritual experiences of my life (aside from one time on ecstasy and acid several times [not entire trip through])...i can't rank them but thats not the point

not all spiritual experiences were scary, but i know i am no where near the level of a shaman. i do think mr. writer brings up a good point about our pre-conceived notions on psychedelics and see how that could relate to how a shaman would interpret his experiences based on cultural influences

on a side note i've done readings on things that suggest many of the abrahamic prophets may have been epileptic, and their seizures led them to their revelations. Some people are even calling epilepsy the sacred disease...and i'm sure that is far from enjoyable.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2661634191857056612#39m09s really interesting video related to epilepsy and spiritual experiences.

 

that was really interesting, things i'd already read about but it was awesome to hear the subject talk about it himself.

one thing that sits funny with me after seeing that video...he said everyone can see the beauty, but after these seizures, the beauty isn't there...seems contradictory to an awakening idk

also talks about seeing into the future, definnitely possible...though not only through painful eruptions in the brain (i just had to get that out haha)

and the end talks about the temporal lobe, makes me think about the pineal gland as a spiritual center as theorized/hypothesized by rick strassman. the brain, man shits crazy

thanks for the post

 

woah, that's a pretty crazy thought.
I mean, i always understood that they would do it for religious purposes, and to achieve divine clarity, but i never really throught that they didn't enjoy it. definatly a new way to think about things.

 

visions aside (good and bad). ayahuasca is an uncomfortable expirience physically. it often causes you to feel sick (deep purging and dry heaving all night inst fun, especially when your head feels like its being blasted by the universe from a cannon) even if you dont feel sick during the course of your journey, the physical sensations of the come up, that come on as the medicine begins its circulation through your body are uncomfortable. its really just part of the expirience.
my body tends to twitch and convulse involuntarily in the beginning. it feels unsettling but after i become aclimated (30min maybe? ...time?wtf!?) my movements become more rythmic and soothing. the come up is hard for me.

 

well i mean it makes sense really if you think about it. just about all heavy psychedelic experiences are uncomfortable. when you are blasted out of your familiar realital realms then you lose all feeling of familiarity that you have, and along with it all comfort. unless, you can find a way to be comfortable with unfamiliarity. surrender, ya know?

this reality consists of a series of karmic patterns and archetypal constructs, on a fundamental level. when we take psychedelics it breaks those patterns, reveals to us new light, and brings us away from what we 'know' into places that we can find new knowledge. we find comfort and enjoyment in familiarity. thus unfamiliarity, and learning, inevitably breeds contradictory emotions.

maybe it isn't so much the state of using psychedelics, as much as it is the state of entering new places that we have never been before, which hold an ocean of knowledge which we are unfamiliar with.