If the guy wanted the baby

I'll say it right now: It's entirely the woman's choice, and in the end the father has no say in the matter. I do wish that when claiming child support, a paternity test were mandatory, as I know too many guys who have found out too late that they weren't the biological. Also, if the guy paying the support turns out to not be the father, he should be able to go after the mother for the entirety of his previous payments. There was a Supreme Court case a while back about a man who had been jailed for refusal to pay child support after finding out that the mother lied about paternity. The SC decided that he was not responsible for future or missed payments, but the man had been rendered homeless by the cost of the payments. The mother walked away with no guilt whatsoever. WTF?

As for abortion, I think that the father has the right to know, unless the knowledge endangers the mother. And it can, sometimes. In all decency he should have a voice, and in committed long-term relationships not to offer at least that is a HUGE abuse on the father, but said voice is not a vote. Mother has the last word, and Father can leave the relationship if he doesn't like it. Ideally, this problem shouldn't arise in healthy relationships anyway, as both parties should have considered the possibility before getting emotionally attached, but in reality this is not the case.

That said, in my state simply signing off custody still leaves you liable for child support payments, and having a baby is an astronomical expense that no one but the mother is really liable for. In married couples, the father is expected to help, but in this scenario I wouldn't expect the couples involved to be married most of the time. IF I wanted to terminate a pregnancy (I can't see me ever doing it, but hypothetically. . . ) and the father wanted to keep it himself, the only way I would even consider it would be with a legally binding contract that he would support me financially (whether I worked or not, considering that in many areas a pregnant woman still risks firing and inability to get employment, and if I DID work my money is not to be used for this) in comfort and health throughout the pregnancy, including ALL medical expenses INCLUDING post-partum procedures and all future medical issues related to pregnancy, that I would NEVER be expected to contribute child support after the birth, and that when the child is born I can still back down and choose to keep it myself. In the case of my refusal to surrender the child, he would have full paternal rights, though, and a right to be a Daddy.

I can't see many people agreeing to these conditions, but even then I can't promise that I would agree to carry the child if I didn't want to keep it. Oh, well, the only way I could even consider aborting is if prenatal scans revealed a MASSIVE birth defect that would doom the baby to a short, miserable existance. I'm not talking Down's here, but something like Harlequin Icthyosis or Tay-Sach's (neither of which are in my family or my husband's) would be worth considering.

 

It shouldn't be simply the woman's choice on paper, it should be decided between the two people, and as the OP said if so be fit the willing party could raise the child.

BUT, it's a woman's choice all in all. Their body, their choice right? I would agree it's only fair that it would be left to the person who has to bare the child. It's painful, discomforting and maybe potentially fatal having a child. It is because of this that I think it should be their choice, seems almost abusive to force that situation.

 

Even if you don't die... you are still going to go through some intense pain and physical troubles. It's impossible to avoid that. And even if it's not likely that you'll die or have a bad complication.... there is still the risk that it could happen.

My opinion is that it's never going to be fair. It's either going to be unfair for the men or unfair for the women. There's no way for it to be fair for both.

Obviously, because I am a woman, I'm on the side of it being the woman's choice
But I still definitely feel that a woman should tell the man and consider his opinion even if she chooses against it. I don't think his feelings should be disregarded completely, just not be able to make the final choice.

 

I find it amusing that one of the basic tenets of feminism is equal rights for women in all things, yet when it comes to this issue many women say that the rights should not, in fact, be equal. Women want the right to terminate the baby as they desire (and in concert or against the desire of the man) and they want the right to child support payments from the man if she wants it and he wants to terminate. If men and women are truly to be equal, and they engaged in the act knowing all the risks involved, then they need to deal with the consequences together, not one person acting unilaterally.

I'm not saying you belong in this category, it's just an interesting observation that I'm noting.

Just one last thing -
Yes it is the woman's body. But it is not solely her child. And to me, that's what's important, that is the crux of the argument, the child, and that for one person to have sole authority to terminate the baby's life is the issue.

 

"intense pains and physical trouble"

Look at it realistically. its almost 2010 people. Besides natural contractions and kicking, Im sure they will make or have made some type of medicine for any type of pain shes having. And dont say oh but the birth is painful. No. They have shit for that.

and if shes worried about physical trouble NOW then she shouldnt have babies at all. That alone would be the poorest excuse not to have a child IMO. "oh Im gonna gain weight and my boobs will get big!!"

So we all come to the conclusion that it SHOULD be discussed and answer made between both partners

it IS unfair on one end, but think again when you have sex and use better protection

 

You don't seem to be advocating for equal rights either, so you shouldn't criticize others. There is NO WAY for this to be equal. No way at all. So to suggest that it can somehow BE equal is completely absurd.

Personally, I think that in issues like this men and women cannot be equal because we are different biologically. There is no way to get around that fact. Like I said before, if men start getting pregnant too, then and only then can it be equal. I believe that people should be considered just as worthwhile if they are male or female... but I don't believe that men and women can every be treated exactly the same way. It just doesn't work.

I would gladly give up my right to choose if the man had to be the pregnant one.

 

If the man is so concerned about not being able to keep a child that the woman doesn't want I guess HE shouldn't have had sex either. The fact that you are saying being able to take drugs during labor means that pregnancy and childbirth is no problem is ridiculous.

 

seriously anti. you're taking shit overboard. this isnt the 1920s anymore. Any drug they have will not harm the baby. its up to the woman though if she wants to go through the pain or not.

 

i actually don't even think this is a mens vs womens rights issue. it's a pregnant person vs non-pregnant person issue.

it has nothing to do with gender except in the biological sense that men cannot have babies.

if a man were to get pregnant and disagree with his female partner about whether or not to keep the child, i would still feel that ultimately it should be the pregnant persons choice.

 

The issue isn't drugs vs. not taking drugs. Regardless, going through a pregnancy for 9 months and then pushing 7+ pounds out of your vagina is a pretty intense physical process. I really don't see how anyone could possibly deny that.

Edit: and like tree huggin veg said, it is also an intense emotional experience to be pregnant.

Like fickle says, it's not a man vs woman issue.... it's about who is pregnant. If men start getting pregnant, they can make the choice.

 

Also, I don't particularly believe that just because doctors say that drugs won't harm anything, that they actually won't cause harm.

 

When I told my ex that I was pregnant, he offered to punch me in the stomach. And then one time, he grabbed a knife and came after me. Yep. And that is why my ex has nothing to do with his son.

As for the topic of the thread:

Overall, I believe that the woman has the right to her body. However, the man has the right to have an opinion on the subject and shouldn't be left out. It is all very situational. Abusive, drug addicts (such as my ex) shouldn't ever have the right to a child. And if a woman and man decide some sort of arrangement to let the father keep the baby, so be it. However, if it were me, I would NEVER be able to go through nine months of pregnancy and the many hours of labor just to give a child to a father.... then have to pay child support and what not.... and then not even be around to raise the baby. If you haven't had a baby before, it probably is way easy for you to simply say "fuck abortion, give the baby to the dad" or "she shouldn't have been a slut... " The thing is, pregnancy changes people. Not only bodies, but the whole self: body, mind, spirit. I am a completely different person than I was 2 years ago. I don't think it's fair for people to lash out so quickly when it isn't, one, their situation to examine and, two, they have never experienced such a situation.

 

I agree with BraveSirRubin 100%. Are you fucking kidding me? If I got knocked up and then the father wanted the baby, but I didn't, he could just fuck off. I'm not going through 9 months of shit just so some dude (whose only contribution was to plant his sperm in me) can be a daddy. Fuck that. Abortion all the way.

 

What would he get out of lying about it?

 

That's not a very calm way of looking at it when we're talking about a possible baby here. All men and women know sex might = pregnancy.

 

Word. Unless it's discussed beforehand, I believe it's completely in the hands of the woman. If I got a girl pregnant, I wouldn't even want to know what she did about it or that it even happened.

 

This is my story:

I was married for 10 years with two kids, about 2 and 3. My wife had had an abortion a year earlier by mutual consent. Our situation had changed radically ( and i might add legit) and we could financially handle another kid without a problem.

She wanted an abortion; I did not. But legally, and in her eyes morally, I had no say. So she had an abortion. [She didn't sneak off-- I was there).
A few months later I was really feeling it. The first abortion didn't matter; an unwanted child is best left unborn.
But the second one was wanted, at least by me, and it really, really, bugged me.

So I decided to get a vasectomy.

Now here's the kicker-- I was 32, married 11 years with two kids and I had to get a note from my wife okaying the operation.

Of course she gave it.

 

Um, have you never heard of the FDA approving drugs and then later it turns out that they are harmful?

For instance, way back when there was a drug they gave to women to help with morning sickness and it turned out that it caused horrible birth defects... yet doctors still prescribed it.

Things like this happen quite frequently.

 

There should be a law passed that if the mom doesn't want the baby and the father does then she HAS to keep the baby or jail.

 

are you kidding?! I hope that NEVER happens. my ex is a psychopath. granted, I kept my baby and am raising him solo, but I would NEVER give a child to a person like my ex.

jail time for having an abortion instead of giving a baby to a father is ridiculous. let's just take away all our rights.... no thanks. I like being a woman and having the right to choose and the right to my body.