Something to think about in WW2

Most countries, Britain, France, America, Soviets, mobilized for total war the moment war broke out. They shifted their entire industry to support the war effort from the start. Germany on the other hand did not. They followed the blitzkrieg concept of war and were not expecting a drawn out war. Consumer goods up to 1942 were still produced in high volume to avoid rationing, women were(and even afterwards) still encouraged not to work in factories.

Not until after Stalingrad and when Albert Speer became armaments minister in early 1942. Everyone thinks of the massive allied bombing in 43 and 44 putting an end to the Nazi war machine, which it helped no doubt, but really the Germans were able to rebuild factories pretty quickly. Production actually rose greatly in both 43 and 44, for example:

Tank and self propelled guns total produced by year:
1940: 1,648
1941: 3,790
1942: 6,280
1943: 12,063
1944: 19,100
1945(up till surrender): 3,392

Aircraft all all types:
1940: 10, 826
1941: 11,776
1942: 15,556
1943: 25,527
1944: 39,807
1945: 7,544
Think of the last one especially, in 1945, which Germany ceased to exist period come May, and was losing it's own actual territory and had been suffering constant bombing for 3 years managed to almost reach 1939 levels.

Point is, how different would the war have gone if Germany full mobilized it's economy in September 1939

 

Interesting point. Do you have any figures from the Allied nations to compare them too?

 

Why, yes I do! Also, I've had to change the German numbers a bit as I want to use just one source. Where I got them from online originally was only German numbers, but now I'm copying the numbers out of The World War II Databook by John Ellis(which by the way if you're really into the technical aspects of WW2 is a fuckin fantastic book), so I wanted all the numbers from the same source, but they only marginally changed:

Tank and self propelled gun production:
Great Britain:
1940: 1,399
1941: 4,841
1942: 8,611
1943: 7,476
1944: 4,600
1945: ?

Soviet Union:
1940: 2,794
1941: 6,590
1942: 24,446
1943: 24,089
1944: 28,963
1945: 15,419

USA:
1940: 331
1941: 4,051(though not at war we stepped up war time production, many tanks were sent to the British army)
1942: 24,997
1943: 29,497
1944: 17,565
1945: 11,968



Aircraft of all types:
Great Britain:
1940: 15,049
1941: 20,094
1942: 23,672
1943: 26,263
1944: 26,461
1945: 12,070

Soviet Union:
1940: 10,565
1941: 15,735
1942: 25,436
1943: 33,845
1944: 40,256
1945: 20,052

USA:
1940: 12,804
1941: 26,277
1942: 47,836
1943: 85,898
1944: 96,318
1945: 49,761

I don't want to type them all out by year, but for total war production (which is till 1943 for Italy, and till the end for Japan it was:

Tanks:
Italy: c. 2,500
Japan: c. 2,700
Hungary: c. 500

Aircraft:
Italy: 11,300
Japan: 76,400
Hungary and Romania: About 1,100 each

Also after Speer took over, the building of a new U-boat went from almost a year to complete to about 3 months.

During WW1 a German general used a phrase in regards to his country's alliance with Austria-Hungary that basically I think describes Germany's alliance with Italy in 1939:
"It's like being shackled to a corpse"

 

Interesting. I don't really know what to make of it.

On one hand, even if they had fully militarised their industry, it would obviously put them in a better position- particularly for Operation Barborossa.

On the other hand, for knocking Britain out of the war for example, I can't see it making much difference. They still would have had to crossed the channel which simply couldn't do without air superiority and a decent navy (Which they lacked).

On top of this, once the US and USSR were involved, even if they had mobilised, I don't think they could match the Allies.

 

It's those 2 events that could've make all the difference though, especially at Stalingrad, the Germans had over 90% of the city, but the manpower differences were just too large, especially when the Soviets began operation Uranus, had the Germans had an extra 4,000 thanks to throw into it at a time when they still had gas it could've made a big difference in whether those 600,000 men of the 6th army would ever even wind up surrounded.

Especially in Britain though, Germany had the advantage to begin with nearly 2-1 in planes, but the Me-109 could only stay over Britain for a short while because of it's short range and the British had a very effective defense system. But if the numbers were 3 or 4-1, who knows.

Funny story, when fieldmarshal von Rundstedt turned himself in to the Americans, Soviet interrogators came to interview him. Of course they asked him what he thought the most important battle of the war was, thinking he would say Stalingrad, but to their annoyance he said the Battle of Britain

 

One has to wonder about sources. Could the German naval and aircraft companies have lied to their government in order to save their asses? Possibly with a little hush money under the table?

 

It's possible but I doubt it, the said products had to be delivered to the German government and one thing the Nazis are famous for which ironically helped in them being the scourge of humanity was being excellent record keepers

 

from what little we were taught about it was the bitter russian weather that really did hitler in,but as they say the war story is always taught
by the winners?

 

and guess who sold them the "programs" that made them so great at record keeping? IBM

 

Lack of fuels and other strategic resources.

 

This was a major problem for the Axis, especially after shipments from the Soviet Union were stopped when war with them began. Once the Ploiesti oilfields were lost it became basically critical.

 

Doomed once the battle of attrition commenced in the most destructive phases of the conflict in the east. As impressive as the numbers may seem there was only so much that could be extracted by way of a policy of smash and grab and the reintroduction of forced labour into continental Europe on a massive scale.

 

Let's not forget that while Germany were clearly abusing the arms treaty, they were still clamped down on how much military power they could have until war was declared.

 

Eh no really, even pre-Hitler the German government began to declare it would not adhere to the treaty

 

Something about that doesn't add up. I'm going to throw down the "my grandfather was a Nazi card" and state, from his vocalizations to me, that the Waffen SS moved into Poland with an exact force that would replicate the German Armed Forces numbers.
When France decided to declare war, she was expecting little to no resistence. She met the German regular army. The Waffen SS were to be a non military force in the books. This easily let Hitler build an armament force with the SS and the number of tanks/planes were not added to the German army thus giving the allies the impression that they weren't capable of a two sided front early on.
Had France known that the German army had nothing to do with the invasion of Poland, I doubt that they would have tried marching into Germany like they did.
France basically gave Germany months of advantages because since Poland fell in a month they still had an assumption that there was little force in the German state. So they sat on the border and played the waiting games. The Germans took full advantage of the French (and British) passivity and took all the time they needed to get ready. For months absolutely nothing happened. Finally the Germans were ready and they attacked in May of 1940. The french army was outflanked, out maneuvered and outfought

 

The German army had everything to with the invasion of Poland? The one good thing about the Nazis is they were meticulous record keepers. Especially in Poland at the time the SS was still a rather small force that didn't even have one full division. The Waffen SS still as a technical organization didn't exist yet, and SS formations were still only regiment and brigade size. Here's a map of German and Polish divisions at the start of the invasion and essentially all are wehrmacht units.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Dywizje_wrzesien_1.png
Even in the Battle of France in May 1940 there were only 4-5 SS divisions in existence at the time. Even at its peak the Waffen-SS only consisted of about 35 divisions spread around Europe, with many of said divisions not actually being German.

Germany at the time(and even in the future as Barbarossa proved) couldn't in fact fight a 2 front offensive war. The allies problem was they were wary at launching an offensive, especially the French lacked political willpower in government, and a deep morale problem in the military. The French didn't really march into Germany, they launched one small offensive into the Sarr region which they succeed at with minimal resistance since the German defense was at the Siegfried line and French forces stopped before they even reached it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saar_Offensive

 

Sorry, I had it the complete wrong way around.
But in any case the SS were still a hidden force at the beginning of the war. They were under the portrayel to be apart German arms and local militia from Danzig.
I was thinking of the strike on Holland where the supposed "bulk" of the German army went straight up to the Ardennes forest and Belgium and drew the lower countries out of position. Once the SS panzer divisions had effected a break through, German forces crashed the Channel and defeated the French and British armies.

 

Irminsul: Your signature jingle is interesting -- probably translated from a German equivalent? Certainly the English version doesn't have any big words that your average German soldier would have trouble reading or spelling, nor are the concepts too difficult for him to grasp.

 

It's from a German skinhead band called Hassgesang.

When I see the flag that is blowing today I know that there is something wrong
The colours of democracy, could never stand for Germany!
Where is the flag that was flying for this country in the past?
We must fight for it's reincarnation, to change the flag is a must!

Most people assume I'm regarding red, white and black as the swastika flags but its really the Kaiser Imperial flag. And I mean honestly, the German flag today is damn ugly!

 

But....but....why do you have skinhead lyrics in your signature?