good debate/bad debate

Not at debating, I mean generally as a person.

I just noticed this today.

When I go through periods of debating a lot, my debates are more closed-minded, less thought out, more reliant on established belief than any actual current thought, and I'm way more likely to lose my cool or fall back on psycho-emotional manipulation tactics (sorry for any possible undeserving victims of that, by the way).

When I come on fora less, or debate on these fora less, I notice that all my arguments are so much more thought out, and way more likely to stay friendly and calm.
The two types that can still really get to me in this state are the people that completely ignore your points, or clearly don't understand them but are still acting arrogant and/or indignant.

Also, I always get really fucking nailed by Murphy's law here - anytime that I am in a positive state, I run into mostly poor debaters - and usually when I'm in the more dirty state, I run into a moral debater and feel like a major asshole by the end (even if I still felt I've won)

 

well now you see why lawyers are rumored to end up in hell.

I think the more you put yourself in a position to argue you start to develop technique for winning not learning from the argument.

plus you start to prep yourself for the barrage of ignorance that always seems to get launched at any intelligent idea and end up taking it out on the wrong people.



Just keep in mind when you post...if you leave the forum having proved someone wrong, you gained nothing but a lame sense of achievement for a few moments. But if THEY can successfully prove YOU wrong, you left with a new piece of knowledge you can keep forever.

 

Well, the reason I debate isn't to be right (though it was very much), it's to expand knowledge on either side (in any way) - but when they don't have the same motive, it makes it rather hard to keep the argument on fair grounds because I get really frustrated.
I know there are some cases in which something is truly a lost cause, but I know from experience that on rare occasion, you can turn an argument into a true debate.by saying the exact right words.
Unfortunately, true debate is really hard to find on the Internet, and strangely, probably more so here than on any forum I've been on (is it because it's the biggest I've frequented, maybe?) - but I always want to try to turn it into a true debate, and don't catch myself starting to argue in the process.

 

I just got really fucking depressed by a bad argument I had because I've never been friendlier in my life with someone who was being dirty, and they still attacked me. I'm not hurt by it, but it's so sad.

Why do people think you have to be mean to someone to disagree with them? Is it because so many people get offended by being disagreed with, or is the world just filled with radical douchebags?
(And this was a liberal, too =( )

 

when I'm debating, I'm debating for the sake of the debate, not because I actually believe my position.

I think that's what is getting you in trouble duckie.

 

Playing devil's advocate isn't fun for me.

I like to have discussions about topics I either have a stance on (whether weak or strong) with someone that doesn't agree with me in order to expand my mind.
This is really fucking hard to find on these forums, but these forums have the most interesting topics I've ever read.

 

i totally get where you're comin from. i'd concentrate on making the positive and negative states the same and flat cuz it opens your mind to things. and when debating, lay out the differences and find middle grounds with people. For me, it seems like smartness is based on how you accept everything that isn't you. explanation is much more worthwhile than opinion

 

I definitely agree that this is a big part of intelligence, and one most of the folks here lack (or at least most of the folks I get into arguments with it seems) =P

That doesn't apply to all types of discussion so well, but I do definitely agree generally. =)

 

I've never wasted time trying to convince others to see things my way (the right way)

 

That's arguing, not debating.

You can disagree and talk about it and keep bringing up interesting counter points (and even get stuck for a while thinking about one) without either of you getting any closer to the other person's position and still gain new perspectives on all sortsa details surrounding or within the debate.

 

Devils advocacy has nothing to do with it.

it's the thrill of the hunt

Real debates don't change peoples minds who are worth changing (there are exceptions to this, but they're terribly rare) and so it's as farcical as what I do

but I get more fun out of the game, and often get people who take debating too seriously all wound up.

which is great fun for me.

 

It helps to have the ability to argue either side of an issue with equal conviction. Somehow I suspect this is child's play to you.

 

When people form opinions, input has to come from somewhere. These people are usually observers of debate, not active participants.

 

I was just considering this last night. I was on a blog reading a debate about Ayn Rand, and I was so saddened at what assholes people were being. None of them were willing to discuss the issue objectively (pun intended), nor were they willing to try and see each other's point of view. When I debate, I try to be polite and just question the person; i.e. 'what about this? How would you account for that,' etc. People come to the debate with preconceived ideas (which is normal), but they're not willing to try and actually debate and see each other's viewpoints. People seem to be more interested in just trying to shout down anyone who disagrees. It's fucking sad.

I've found a couple of really decent debates on these forums, and quite a few with potential. However, these are very few in number compared to the flat-out arguments in which people just belittle everyone who disagrees.

 

The problem with the way debate is "scored", is that it is not scored toward effective solution, but popular solution, which amounts to fad.

 

This whole page so far has a lot of great points.

I think if it is scored at all, it's a problem.

 

but, it is scored, debates are not means of changing opinion, data changes opinion.

debates are public relations tool, and formal debates, are ether used as PR, or used to train people to debate effectively in a manner which presents effective PR.

life sucks.

change it or deal with it.

 

I'm a great debater, even have it in writing from a teacher, that in his world wars honor class, the debate he had done on the causes of WW1 for 7 years I just mopped the floor with like no one else ever had. The key to debate is you must not stand for any specific side without standing for the other. You must be a devil's advocate for hire. If you can't understand the other sides position well enough to the point you could actually argue for it, you won't win against it in a debate.

 

Lmao. Elegantly put, and I know what you mean. Slick observation.

I have found this to be true in my own experience.

 

I'm a masterbater.