Impossible to imagine.

What do you mean? How does that make it necessarily false?

 

I've only managed to truly feel like I had entered an altered state once, and it surprised me so much that I scared myself out of it. Your brain doesn't just shut down during it, though. If you weren't conscious during meditation you wouldn't know what you were doing. You'd just know you were feeling some kind of sensation that you like, such as how a rat knows it enjoys the sensation produced by eating cheese.

 

The claim was that all the worlds evidence is in. The whole reason speculation remains is because the whole evidence is not in.

 

Right, but I'm not saying that your brain shuts down, or that you are not conscious. I'm simply describing it as a state where thought is not present.
For this reason, thought and consciousness are not synonymous for me. Thought requires consciousness, not the other way around.

 

That is what I pretty much explained to you through my example of a child before they become aware that they are living in a sense of retaining linguistic knowledge. In fact that equates to the statement I made saying that consciousness does not require thought, which you initially disagreed with.

Honestly unless we clarify what certain words mean to us, we're probably going to go back and forth disagreeing because we have a certain take on what words mean, specifically consciousness, thought, knowledge, observation, and the conditions that come along with each.

What I can say though is, thoughtless presence (awareness) through meditation exists, and it does not equate to a vegetative state, it equates to undivided attention on the present moment. Now, if you were 100% focused on everything that is happening now, and not what happened 3 years ago or what you want to happen in 15 minutes, how could you even begin to compare that state to something vegetative? If anything, the thoughtlessly aware state is alertness at it's highest degree by implication.

And don't worry, nobody's shitting their selves. Some people enjoy such discussion.

 

Interestingly, Chinese children don't ask their parents 'how was I made', but 'How did I grow?

 

I still disagree that consciousness does not require thought. The child in your example is thinking.

I was going to say that meditation would be a state where you've made your self unconscious, as awareness is not a requisite for consciousness, but I think you're right, we're basically arguing semantics.

 

By the sounds of it you do not properly practice or understand meditation. It would be counter-productive to meditate if it was ultimately not beneficial in some form. To be unconscious is to be asleep, metaphorically speaking (as in unaware) or literally (asleep). To meditate is to be awake to this moment as it is, no thoughts, concepts, labels, or judgments attached. It is clarity and alertness in it's highest sense.

Also, in matters of semantics, if I say, I am conscious of the fact that spaghetti exists, or that I am aware of the fact that spaghetti exists, it would be saying the same exact thing. Coincidentally, conscious is also defined as awake, aware, alert.

 

As opposed to I "think" spaghetti exists.

Consciousness is an experience where the brain absorbs stimuli and thought would be how it uses said information.

 

Simply saying, "I think spaghetti exists", would imply that you are not actually aware if it does on an absolute scale, as it expresses a degree of uncertainty in the sense that it is limited to the individual. "I think God exists". "I am aware that God exists". Two totally different statements.

Hmm I don't know. This is what the dictionary says.

Alternate definition:

Alternate definition 2:

Alternate definition 3:

Alternate definition 4:

Alternate definition 4 directly implicates that consciousness does not alone require thought but that one can be conscious of their own thoughts. But then again I might just be one of those silly's who uses factual definitions.

 

Yeah, that would imply secondhand knowledge.

You could say I'm aware or conscious of the fact that I am having a thought that spaghetti exists.

Awareness would be taking in stimuli like looking, smelling and chewing it.

Thought would be the information recorded in the brain from the experience. For example, I remember how great the speghetti tasted and I'm planning to make it in the future.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Just wanted to clear up the sematics.

 

Yep, you could, but that's just over complicating a rather easy statement

 

It just shows consciousness and thought are not synonymous.

 

Who was saying they were?

 

now do you think this is because of the language difference, just difference in expression, or do you think Chinese culture put more emphasis on how than why?

 

The keyword in the primary definition would be cognitive: "of, relating to, being, or involving conscious intellectual activity (as thinking, reasoning, or remembering)"

Conscious can be used to mean aware or asleep as the other definitions state, but nobody here is using them to mean a state of being awake/asleep/etc.

 

Really?

 

Quite the constructive post you've got there.

 

What are you trying to construct?

 

lol?