psychedelics (LSD?) vs alcoholism

I've heard it said, and seen a few quotes about it, but that LSD is one of the ONLY scientifically proven remedies to alcoholism, in terms of genuinely cutting remission/relapse rate by up to 50%.

Before I do the google grind perhaps someone out there has already researched this topic and has a few things to say?

The more I think about it, and digest my own experiences, the more I'm seeing that psychs might be ... one of the biggest keys there is in initiating TRUE recovery. Sure there are other ways to go about quiting drinking, but AA has a pretty low track record, and I can say that as a former member. The sobriety wagon is a hindrance in all reality, but AA'rs will tell you it's sober or die.

Which I find interesting in that on of the founders, Bill W, believed in LSD at least enough to experiment with it himself and fancy the results. I wish I knew more surrounding this, but I don't know if there is a lot out there about it. I think at most a line or two in an AA book about him mentions it.

It is said when battling something like alcoholism true spiritual change must occur. While there is never a guarantee, I would like to think that guided channeled psychedelic drug use could be SOOOOO beneficial to people entering into a life clean off alcohol/drugs.

I know it sounds like a contradiction to say "give someone who wants to be clean MORE drugs", but most of the time isn't it true that the drugs people are addicted are rarely psychs? When was the last time you saw someone in rehab because they just COULDN'T STOP DOSSSSING.... I'll admit, I'm sure it happens, but rarely and few and far between. Drugs that open your eyes to your place in the world, including your drug use. Drugs that open your eyes to spiritual growth and change, the God-Love energy, peace of being, true remorse, the ability to see ones place in all things.

These are big bad powerful healing tools, aren't they?

It's kind of my goal over the next few years to initiate myself deeper into these sacred spaces so that one day I can work with alcoholics and perhaps use some of these tools to help others open up and realize the beauty and love that surrounds us all.

I know there are more people out there doing sacred work. Anyone else out there know of anyone offering guided trips, psychotherapy sessions incorporating drug use, using drugs to help alcoholics or anything like that?

I'm sure it has to be a little more of an underground thing, but ... I'm REALLY hoping it's happening out there.

 

ok... there's definitely info out there. Starting to formulate some thoughts on this.

http://www.psychedelic-library.org/hoffer.htm

I want a copy of The Use of LSD in Psychotherapy and Alcoholism .... but will have to wait until I can scrap up the change to buy a copy on amazon. that seems like the starting place for any research.

Does anyone else have any recommended reading in this vein or line of work? Modern resources, journals, contact info for people in the field doing work, etc?

///Psychedelic Therapy\\\

 

It seems to me that people abuse alcohol for emotional/psychological reasons.
Since psychedelics are so wild and unpredictable when it comes to emotions or a person's unique psychology, I don't see how it can really be fit with a "remedy" label.
There is really no telling what a person is going to go through when they drop acid, I don't see how it can be assumed that ingesting acid is going to be healing or beneficial in any ways.
I realize that it is for some people, but to assume that everyone can gain that kind of experience from it and call it a remedy is stretching the capabilities of the drug a bit far IMO.

 

No, it's definitely not the assumption that merely anyone can take the drug and get a cure from it. But within a structured guided therapy session it can cause GREAT results. They're talking about over a 50% abstinence rate after LSD usage ...

ok, now you'd have to be an alcoholic to appreciate these numbers. Normally remission rate is like 5-10%. Sometimes as high as 20% with therapy and support, but truly, the number of alcoholics who are able to abstain with or without support is pretty dismal. But then they're talking about how a experience is able to change their outlook for the rest of their life.

I can buy it.

Most people do abuse alcohol for emotional and psychological reasons. ... but ok, I guess it would take an alcoholic to explain: the cornerstone of recovery, or sobriety, is a spiritual experience. This is according to AA, so we have to just run with it. I'll interject my own point in a moment. Anyone, the cornerstone of AA is built around "the spiritual experience".

I won't start to get into the connection between psychedelics and the spiritual experience, and most people who understand one understand the other. Some symptoms (loss of perception of time, euphoria, light) fall under both.

I'm not saying it's like an instant "give the drunks doses and they'll never touch another drop" kind of thing, I'm thinking about actually how one could incorporate these principles of sobriety, and bring psychedelic drug use and psychedelic therapy, in as a way to reinforce the spiritual principles at work.

If you've never had to deal with an alcoholic in your family, you probably wouldn't really care why some of us are so passionate about this. It's really a bitch to watch someone drink themselves to death.

Anyway... I think it has potential. I want to research this more, continue in my own drug use. Frame something out so that in 5 years I could actually start working with other people. Enough time to get some more psychology in, and much more growth. I'm in a playground that is waaaaay big.

Sounds kooky, but I think I want to help drunks not drink. *shrug*

 

And I'm talking about a limited approach here with hard-core alcoholics. Life long drinkers. People destroying their lives and those around them by their continual choice to choose alcohol.
It wouldn't be much of a leap to say a strong dose in a safe setting WOULD be beneficial. Especially when other forms of therapy and rehabilitation are failing miserably.

Ever known someone to go through like 6 rehabs and just never seem to "get it"?

... I'm saying that for people addicted to drugs or alcohol with whom traditional therapy and/or AA/NA is NOT working could very likely benefit from a psychedelic experience in the proper environment with a counselor / guide, especially with therapy before and after the experience to help with integration. And I'm talking about mid-to-high dosages, ego death stuff. And integrated MDMA therapy at some point. One would have to look at the spacing of sessions to try and figure out maximum effectiveness, but there would likely be a good combination of drugs that could help trigger beneficial responses in more people than not.

Doubt it would ever become legal, but I have to wonder if this is happening at all out there, if there are any counselors dedicating themselves to this kind of work and exploration??

I've heard of a center in Florida that uses ketamine, but that's the only one and I'm not sure if ketamine is quite the choice... Maybe though, again, i haven't researched this nearly as much as I need to.

Damn i'm excited though. yay.

 

Yes, I'm well aware of the dangers of alcoholism, and don't need them explained to me seeing as how my father has been drinking almost nightly my entire life.

Considering the power of the psychological effect that LSD has on people, I would consider a 50% abstinence rate no where near high enough of a number to be OK with people actually using this form of treatment.
50% is a nice sounding rate, until you realize that what you are talking about is essentially playing with fire at best. What happens to the other 50%? Not only did LSD not help them achieve sobriety, now in a worst case scenario they also have another drug problem, or even more reasons to drink because of maybe what they saw of themselves during the trip.

I'm no psychologist, but offering any sort of therapy or "way out" of a difficult situation as "spiritual" seems to just add more mystery and confusion, not clarity, to a person's life, especially when that person is not familiar with whatever brand of spiritual ideas you are offering them.
Most people feel very strongly about whatever they believe. It doesn't seem like the best course for helping someone deal with addiction is not only to introduce them to a powerful psychedelic experience while they are emotionally weak and psychologically crippled, but to also attempt to force a message of faith or spirituality into the equation, especially when the person may already have conflicting spiritual beliefs, or they reject any spiritual beliefs entirely.

Yeah I dunno. It just seems as though psychedelics are too wildly unpredictable to ever be used in a clinical setting.

 

I don't think they are that unpredictable. set and setting accounts for so much. In the rave, you trip balls. In the clinic, you heal. I don't think they are so powerful, or we are so weak, that we could not integrate psychs into mainstream medicine. There would be the people who come out of it worse off, but that happens with all treatments.

 

Set and setting itself is so unpredictable.
Sure, you can attempt to control the environment, but IMO, all that control goes straight down the shitter when the acid kicks in.
The range of humanity is just too wide, it's impossible I think. One person may feel safe in a white clean sterile room, another may feel trapped, another may feel dead.
I just don't think there is any possible way to have a handle on the situation. When you trip, you are tripping with the faith that it all goes well, because as anyone who has taken a very serious dose knows (the kind of dose necessary for the kind of healing this guy is proposing) any attempts at control are futile once you get deep enough down.
Sure, there are certain things you can do, like not watching horror movies if you don't want to be frightened, but once the trip sets in, there's just no telling, what can set you off, from death metal making you laugh because you realize fear is so ridiculous, or from overwhelming empathy for the entire world that initiates a Jesus dying on the cross moment because for a few seconds you felt one with a fleck of paint on the wall.

 

the volatility of the experience does not exclude it from the realm of medicine. certainly it is alien to 'western medicine' at the moment but hows that any different from every anti-depressant having warnings 'may cause depression' 'may cause thoughts of suicide'. even standard western medicine is pretty hit and miss when it comes to the psychological potions.

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

It isn't that different, which is why I consider pharmaceuticals, particularly SSRIs, designed for treating mental disorders (except in extreme cases) a horrible choice for therapy.

 

It seems pretty common for LSD to bring suppressed issues to the forefront. That would be useful in pretty much any setting where people are looking to get at the root of their psychological problems, alcoholism included.

 

What happens if you're a borderline alcoholic who loves getting drunk while on acid?

 

What's interesting to note in the example you brought up Writer, is how they directly oppose each other, yet I'm a proponent of neither.
SSRIs essentially shut down a person, making them feel like a shell, reducing sensitivity and "treating" mental disorders by numbing the person towards their own experiences. This is obviously not healthy, although it does have the potential of practicality in extreme cases. However, perhaps this sort of approach offers a chance at objectivity when analyzing one's own life and emotions, which can definitely be a healing strategy if it is one that is planned for the short term.
Psychedelics, on the other hand, tend to magnify an individual, placing them simultaneously under the microscope and looking through the microscope. They exponentiate a person so drastically, that everything that person normally thinks or feels is multiplied greatly. The problem with this, especially when a person is under extreme duress or emotional instability, is that it only really offers a "do or die" scenario - come to terms and figure out your own problems because they are in your face, or be consumed by them and everything becomes 1000 times worse.
I don't think drugs can be relied upon neither in the manner the OP is suggesting, or in the manner that western medicine is currently adopting when it comes to mental disorders.

 

So much here to process...

I think a lot of it is a misunderstanding of the point and structure of what I'm talking about. This isn't about doctors giving patients drugs, this is about guides providing structure. I'm looking at an entire holistic program. The drugs would be a vary small portion of the experience, but something for people who are prepared to take a much deeper, harder look at their disease, life patterns, etc.

I know you're saying a %50 percent success rate is pretty dismal, but what's really dismal is the currently employed treatment methods are still only get %10-15 success rate. Every alcoholic I've ever known has been told to go to AA. AA themselves, if you ask them, will tell you that %95 of the people who go through those doors will continue on a life of destructive drinking.

I know I don't have to lecture you on the dangers of drinking.

I'm coming at this as someone who has gone through the despair of alcoholism, in the never ending struggle and guilt and shame of having no control over my drinking and the moral shattering things I got into because of that, and the freedom that I am finding through psychedelic drug exploration. I've been off the booze for a while, but have never in my life felt as renewed or cleansed as I do now after diving back into psychedelics after a long long abstinence. They are providing such deep healing, and I am seeing how the kinds of things that psychedelics force one to encounter during a trip are EXACTLY the kinds of things alcoholics need to see. You will see yourself as you truly are, cut through all the bullshit and the drama that alcoholics create in their soul so that they can continue to drink.

As for the spiritual portion, that is totally self guided. I'm not talking about "implanting" any spiritual ideas or anything, just allowing people to explore the psychedelic experience and allowing their "Higher Power" to show up as whatever form it may be.

And again, this isn't something that's necessarily even aimed at "the general pop", I'm talking about taking balckout alcoholics here who will surely go on to destroy their lives further regardless of WHAT happens and structuring a program that might actually yield higher results than the current approach.

Alcoholism is both a problem of the mind and the body. We actually physically metabolize alcohol differently than the normal population. There is some really deep science about it, but none the less, I'm looking at this just as an example because there have been known studies showing great results.

I'm sure the application could extend to other things as well.

I have faith that people could handle "going there". I mean, you always have to be wise anytime you give someone a drug, and this is no different, but ... there is healing to be had. It can be done. Set and setting do account for a whole lot, EVEN moreso after the acid hits. Allow someone to structure their own trip before they trip. Where is comfortable to them? Then this is where we go. Experienced guides on hand who have been through the experience many times themselves before ever being present to guide another, so that they can have a concept at least of what it happening, to be there to help the person if they get into any difficult spots or need to talk about anything they are experiencing.

...

just some thoughts. more later, but it's sunny out. gotta go!

Edited to add: Didn't they used to have LSD clinics in the 50's where ANYONE could go, pay a fee, and experience LSD? It was kind of a hush hush thing but a lot of artists and such did it. I'm pretty sure about this.

 

Of course.
But the very reason AA has such an abysmal success rate is exactly because the majority of people AREN'T prepared to take a much deeper, harder look at their disease or life patterns.
If they were, then you wouldn't even need the acid in the first place. And if they aren't, giving them acid is dangerous at best.

For me, a 15% success rate without other drugs used is better than a 50% success rate with other drugs used, especially LSD, for the sole reason that the other 50% had to come into contact with yet another drug and still received no help.

Who exactly is going to be a guide?
Some payed stranger the alcoholic just met a few weeks prior?
Set and setting are important, and when the shit hits the fan the presence of a benign companion CAN be beneficial, but we are talking about like the kindergarten of bad trips if that is all it takes to ensure a smooth ride.

I think so.
At this day and age that kind of thing is nothing more than a pipe dream though.

 

This is a very interesting topic and one that is directly related to what I am trying. I have been sober for around three years now with the help of AA. After reading through the threads on the effects of psychedelics and the experiences people have had with them I'm looking into trying them. Not for the reason that its just another drug but to get that "much deeper, harder look" at myself. I plan on taking shrooms because currently I wouldn't even know where to get LSD. I have never even taken a psychedelic drug in the past. It was more alcohol and hard drugs.

The spirituality part of the experience also interests me. I am not a religious person but I believe in, well something I guess I cant explain and that I don't try to define.

I will see if the experience and insight is beneficial and go from there.

Great topic

 

Psychedelics made me step outside the shell and ask myself why I've been drinking nightly among many other things, so I'd say it's helped me in that respect, before an already growing problem grew larger.

Hardened alcoholics of years might be a different story, who knows. I'd say it boils down to how much one turns to alcohol for emotional comfort. If LSD can help one reconnect to emotional comfort that isn't restricted to the limited time only a drug can provide, then I can see obvious benefits, as long as LSD doesn't become a habit itself. My $0.02

 

I'm still working on this. Like I said, this is going to take a few years to actually write up.

Thank you for bringing up these questions. They are all important things to be tackled. There are more I wonder of. The danger of scizophrenic breaks, etc. I'm currently looking at some of the research out there, but it's going to take weeks before I even really start to understand this stuff.

I think a guide has to be someone that you can feel you trust your life with, as on a heavy drug you might just have to. This isn't going to be some random stranger parings or anything like that.

The way I picture it is in order to guide you must have been through the experience yourself at least 5 - 10 times (just rough numbers here). The guide should also be someone who is familiar with alcoholism. I'm split between the guides being recovered alcoholics or mental health professionals. Ideally perhaps both. In order to eventually get to a session you would have to go through 10-12 therapy sessions to really evaluate if you are ready for the experience and to gain comfort and familiarity between the guide(s) and the participant. If the participant does not feel comfortable with their guide, they can at any point decide to back away from the experience.

I'm not talking merely about benign companions. I'm talking about having experienced trippers who also have experience in either the mental health field or alcoholism recovery.

And again this is just some loose thoughts on the framework I'm building up here.

Though I feel we're intellectually at odds with each other on this one, so I do enjoy the input. If this thing is going to be a reality I need to carefully consider the criticisms and reasons why it might not work fully, and your input and questioning helps me further articulate my idea.

 

I have PM'ed you some further questions because I am very interested. It is exactly the experiences like people such as yourself that I want to hear about. When you do get to take this journey please come back and let us know your thoughts on the experience, ok?