Shall We All Carry ID Cards?

1. The thing is though at one point there were more jobs than people. Migrants come because of supply and demand, the grapevine even among illegal immigrants especially in the information age is huge, people don't go where there's no work. A bit over 2 years ago the unemployment rate was about 4%, 3% is considered full employment my most economists. Apparently there was in fact enough work for the 12 million illegal immigrants. Do we just kick immigrants out every time the economy goes down and welcome them back in boom times?

2. Rising prices hurts the recovery The US economy is 70% service based, i.e. the American consumer spending money is what makes our economy go tick tock. Consumers are fickle, if they see sudden rising prices during bad times they'll cut back on their spending. Only migrant workers and mainly those in construction make under min wage and I don't see many Americans lining up to pick vegetables or do construction for $8 an hour. Otherwise their employers hire them using fake SSN, which means they need to be paid payroll wages(see my illegal immigrants that pay taxes thread) which means they are being paid American wages.

3. Forcing people to get a job destroys the point of unemployment. How do you force people to find work when no one wants to hire? It destroys the whole point of unemployment too. Aside from making sure people don't need to burn through their savings its designed to make sure people aren't forced to take the first min wage, dead end job that comes along. Getting a new job is much harder when you have a current job.

4. As for Mexico, aside from the people, drug cartels armed with American weapons, funded by American drug laws and American drug consumers, who have more money and power than the government in some parts, and have turned northern Mexico into basically a war zone, isn't good for them either.

 

Better then building a giant fence I suppose

 

The fence would be less racist.

 

True, but less practical in my opinion. Might as well take after the Simpsons and drop a glass bowl over America if you think a huge fence is a better option.

 

Just annex the rest of the hemisphere, fuck.

 

I didnt post to get into your personal vendettas or job history, nor do I give a shit about such. I apologize, I thought it was a discussion about being required to carry ID, which I think should be obvious. If it becomes that, I may be back but Im not here to debate your reviews of your own local PoPo. It sounds like you haven't always given respect "even when you were one" - in fact you sound disdainful. If you lead with that attitude than it doesnt surprise me that you have had trouble. It doesnt take a crystal ball to predict that. And indeed, if you have issues like you say you do, than this whole thing is just a chance for you to give vent to your hangups about them. Since there isnt any changing that, I wont even try.

nor will i correct your spelling mistakes, real or imaginary... because I am still trying to give you a little respect in spite of not getting any.

thanks,
have a nice day

 

The Arizona Law is not targeting Hispanics. It is aimed at all "illegals". All aliens are required by law to be registered by the government and have in their possession an ID card.
What makes no sense to me is the distress over a law that no legal citizen of the United States has to worry about.
All "illegals" need to leave with their families period. It doesn't matter what country they are from if they are here illegally they are breaking the law, thereby giving law enforcement probable cause.

 

No, it's targeting hispanics, who people of hispanic descent who are American citizens already make up 35% of Arizona's population. Please tell me what an illegal immigrant looks like, because the governor of Arizona sure as hell couldn't tell a news conference, at least without sounding horribly racist. This is literally going back to the Jim Crow days where black people with light skin were said to have good skin because they could pass as white. Hispanic isn't a racial demographic, it's an ethnic one, 15 or so% of Mexico's population is pure white and I'm sure many of those who are mixed can pass for pure white, as it is in all Latin American countries. So basically if you look what Americans think a Mexican should look like you're fucked, but if you look white, welcome to America.

This is why we need amnesty, because all of a sudden they're no longer "illegal" immigrants and the whole debate doesn't exist anymore.

 

Amnesty for ALL illegal aliens, or just the Hispanic?

 

Very good points. I appreciate the response. I can't really argue with points 1, 2 or 4, other than the " Only migrant workers and mainly those in construction make under min wage and I don't see many Americans lining up to pick vegetables or do construction for $8 an hour." part. I'm also not sure I'm convinced that the rise in prices of goods would be horribly detrimental. I might be wrong, especially if we have a bad inflationary period in the near future.

As far as 3, the point of unemployment is so that people's lives aren't completely ruined when they lose their job. They are allowed a period of time to find another job and continue their life. I don't see how giving people less time really destroys the point. Let's say instead of 26 weeks + a 13 week extension period, we change it to 13 weeks + a 13 week extension period after review of the circumstances. If a person can't find a new job in 13 weeks, they need to be motivated to take a lesser unskilled job. At least temporarily. (Maybe I'm wrong on those timeframes. I've just seen some people who only make token attempts to get a job for a while so they can collect "their share" of the benefits. Any system put in place will be abused to some extent though.)

An office worker might have to do some construction, landscaping, or something else. If the situation allows, temporary or permanent relocation might be required. Couldn't this fill at least some of the holes left if illegals could not longer be employed? Yes, this means some people wouldn't be able to get back to their better jobs because they don't exist anymore because the prices of services have rose. I see this an undoing a situation that shouldn't have occurred in the first place and a necessary step to getting back to a more natural economic situation.

Maybe I'm not seeing this from a complete view, but I've been out of a job and short of funds. I didn't go collect a check. I temporarily took a job in fast food, moved into a cheaper place, and made ends meet until I was able to find a better job and restart my career. I didn't have a house or family at the time which would definitely complicate things.

That is getting way off point of this topic which is this AZ law. Sorry about that Shale.

PS, I just considered something that might completely invalidate my thoughts. The US workforce is becoming older and there is a shortage of replacements available. Even if illegal immigrants can't really meet the demand, their children might be able to. Also, that's another argument to ease of restrictions on legal immigration.

 

I don't like it, but I'm not completely against amnesty. We must have a system in place to ensure illegal immigrants don't continue to come over after this amnesty would go into effect though. If not, we'll just be back in the same situation 30 years from now.

 

Why, there is basically no system for blue collar immigrants from Mexico or near anywhere else to come here. They're highly important to the working of our economy, and no, they're not taking any anyone's job. The US labor force is around 140 million people. The offical unemployment rate is almost 10%, but for this we'll use a more realistic 14%, which means 10 million people are out of work. Of illegal immigrants it's estimated around 8 million are employed. So that means in the worst recession in the past 70 years, if you kicked out every single illegal immigrant you could bring back the unemployment rate to what it was 2-3 years ago assuming every person that's lost their job in the past 2 years has been a min wage job.(hint, most are not)

*edit*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_residence_(United_States)#Immigration_eligibility_and_quotas
There are the yearly quotas for green cards. The system is near exclusive for relatives of people already here(around 500,000) a year, otherwise you best have a degree or be from a country experiencing genocide.

 

Did you even read the first post? I agree we need to get a handle on illegal aliens in our country.

What I am opposed to, as a legal citizen of the United States are cops profiling a group of ppl as they have done in the past because they look "suspicious." I have been profiled back when I had long hair and looked like some kind of dope-smoking Hippie. (Of course I was) but cops illegally stopped and searched me to see if I was holding (I never was) because of my looks. It annoys even white boys like me - and I know it is even more annoying to the black brothers who get stopped more often and treated even worse when they are stopped for "suspicion."

My complaint was not a support for illegal aliens, it was against profiling people and harassing law abiding U.S. citizens in order to find the illegals.

The cops will stop those suspicious looking people with ample "indio" facial features, the look so common among Mexicans and other Centro Americans. Of course that is not "profiling," which has gotten a bad rep from its abuse of black Americans over the years. And, we are all at risk of being stopped.

Before jumping onto this knee-jerk solution to getting rid of illegal aliens, perhaps everyone should consider how will you prove that you are a U.S. Citizen if you do get stopped. Will a Drivers license suffice? Will you have to carry envelopes of legal papers or a birth certificate? I have a U.S. Passport, but I'd rather not carry it all the time in my cut-off shorts, my usual attire in this muggy South Florida heat.

This was the point I was making. Perhaps you don't mind the cops stopping you on your way to somewhere else and interrogating you as to your legal status in the U.S. Perhaps you look white enuf not to be stopped (Despite the fact that in some parts there are likely illegal Canadians here that go under the profile radar).

My point is that this law is poor enforcement, which BTW is the same opinion as the American Police Chiefs Association.

 

Have any of you read the Az law? It's illegal to profile. They can only be asked for ID during a valid traffic stop or when caught committing a crime etc. This is not a "new law" it's a mirror of the Federal law that the Federal government refuses to enforce.

Proof of citizenship required? Yes there is a law and it has been in place for 70years or more. All immigrant workers in the USA are required to carry ID at all times! If you do not have a work visa and you are not a US citizen, you are an illegel alien. Where is the grey area here? Is that law to be ignored because it's racial profiling all of a sudden?

And for those of you who think illegal immigrants should have rights and be treated fairly, check the law. Since 1929 illegal entry into the United States is a Federal crime!

Illegal immigrants are costing Az money. Estimates in Az are from 1.3 to 2.7 billion a year for education, hospitalization, incarceration, social programs etc. Az can't afford it anymore! It has nothing to do with race. It just so happens that the vast majority of illegals are in fact from mexico. Stop it with this profiling hispanics nonsense!

In the USA an estimated 300,000 "birth citizen babies" are born in the U.S. annually. Their births and long term medical care are provided for free. Illegal aliens across America get housing subsidized by taxpayers, while citizens remain on waiting lists. Anchor Baby loophole is used by government agencies. The fourteenth amendment was not meant to provide amnesty for illegal immigrants babies.

WASHINGTON, DC - Panel of experts estimate illegal population between 20 and 38 million.

And no they don't make up for there cost in taxes paid.

WASHINGTON, DC - Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens are committing felony document fraud by using fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment.

UTAH and ARIZONA - In Utah, over 50,000 kids social security numbers have been fraudulently used by illegal aliens. In Arizona over one million numbers are being used, causing permanent damage to the childrens' SSNs. Kids stolen SSNs used by illegal aliens across the country is in the millions and the Social Security Administration fails to act.

A question: If 3000 unknown persons were found alluding international inbound airport security in one month what do you think the reaction from the DHS, TSA, the media and our elected officials would be? Why then is there no sense of urgency when an estimated 3000 unknown persons a month pass through "security" on our Southwest border?

 

Uh, because our Southwest border can't be flown into a skyscraper?

All your facts about illegal aliens are valid. THAT IS NOT THE POINT!

Damn, I'm not talking about illegal immigrant workers being sent back to wherever, I'm talking about the loss of civil liberties of all of us when the police have authority to stop ppl on the streets and ask them for their papers.

I've already mentioned how cops get around that in many different ways. Not theoretical, ask any black man you know they will likely tell you how they were stopped for some "valid" reason, whereas whitey was not stopped for that same reason.

I am not an immigrant worker in the US. Do I have to carry proof of citizenship? I don't look Mexican so I likely won't get stopped but if I do, what papers will I need to prove that I am not an immigrant worker?

 

Actually the illegal population is estimated at around 11-14 million, and yes, they do make up for what they take in taxes. For example, most illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes, but unlike the 30% of American citizens who won't pay federal income taxes this year they don't get to partake in the world's shittiest welfare system.

Have YOU read the bill? It gives the police power to ask for proof of immigration status not just in stops for other crimes but in any instance to use their judgement if they think someone is an illegal immigrant, which goes back to:

Especially considering Arizona's largest native born demographic is Hispanics.

FYI, the original immigration laws from 1929 and in the 30's were also made as a way to use to economic downturn of the time to kick Hispanics out of the south west just like the 1924 bill was a racist attempt to keep Italians and other southern/eastern Europeans out of the country, but shhh, it's a secret.

Challenge: do you argument again without using the word illegal. It's amazing how these arguments all of a sudden just don't exist anymore and can be easily avoided by making people not be illegal people.

 

In regards to unemployment, the problem is by telling people to go take a job below what they're looking for until a better one comes up you're just further hurting the labor market. On one hand businesses don't like to hire people who are only going to work until the earliest moment they can leave, it's bad for them, but more importantly in a very hard job market while that job may be an easy come, easy go one for you, for someone else that could be a job they want to stay at for a long time that they can't get now. By trying to force people into jobs in a bad job market you're distorting the market and keeping more people out of work for even longer.

 

So?



*foreign nationals violating U.S. immigration policies and national laws by entering or remaining in the United States without proper permission from the United States government.

 

Shale, you seem to forget that before the Arizona law passed, law enforcement still had the authority to ask for papers if you had been stopped for another reason. Nothing changed, it just was made Arizona specific. A law abiding citizen should not have a problem with being asked for papers, unless you have something to hide.

 

I did not forget.

You apparently forgot to read my accounts in the this thread about being stopped on suspicion as a law abiding citizen and having my pockets searched because I had long hair and a beard in a crew cut world.

There were other instances where I was stopped because I looked suspicious - and each time I was a law abiding citizen who RESENTED IT IMMENSELY.

When you were stopped for no reason other thant LOOKING suspicious you did not resent it?