Israel now kills people on live TV

It still does not say Israel created "Hamas", sorry.


Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of the Islamist movement in Palestine, returning from Cairo in the seventies, established an Islamic charity association.

Prime Minister Golda Meir, saw this as a an opportunity to counterbalance the rise of Arafat’s Fatah movement. (we both agree about that)

According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Rashit (October 1987), "The Islamic associations as well as the university had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority" in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza.

In 1984, Ahmed Yassin was arrested and condemned to twelve years in prison, after the discovery of a hidden arms cache.

But one year later, he was set free and resumed his activities. And when the Intifada (‘uprising’) began, in October 1987, which took the Islamists by surprise, Sheik Yassin responded by creating the Hamas (The Islamic Resistance Movement): "God is our beginning, the prophet our model, the Koran our constitution", proclaims article 7 of the charter of the organization.


Which says to me, an Islamist movement was set up by Ahmed Yassin.
Seeing this an opportunity to "counterbalance the rise of Arafat’s Fatah movement" the Israelis help fund and allowed funding to the precursor to what we now call "Hamas".
If I can be pedantic for a minute, there was no such thing as "Hamas" when Israel was helpng fund an Islamist org'.

Israels behaviour helped spawn what we know as "Hamas" (thats's what the first article is actually saying, imho.)

It seems that Israel were trying to crush a terrorist org' with a more benign group, so helped the precursor to "Hamas" (a group that was not involved in terrorist activity at that time)...
Now "Hamas" is inpart a terrorist org', so Israel is trying to crush something it helped spawn.

Now:

The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) (Arabic: منظمة التحرير الفلسطينية‎; Munaẓẓamat al-Taḥrīr al-Filasṭīniyyat (help·info)) is a political and paramilitary organization founded in 1964.It is recognized as the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people," by over 100 states with which it holds diplomatic relations, and has enjoyed observer status at the United Nations since 1974.The PLO was considered by the United States and Israel to be a terrorist organization until the Madrid Conference in 1991. In 1993 PLO recognized Israel's right to exist in peace, accepted UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, and rejected "violence and terrorism"; in response Israel officially recognized the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people.

Israel now supports the PLO...now they are not a terrorist organisation anymore.
Replaced with a group they helped spawn, which inpart is.
Which is ironic Isn't it.


This is the definition of "It's complicated"

Using your logic: Al-Quaeda was created by the US because they helped fund the mujahideen.

It's strange how the same articles can be seen two very different ways.
I don't think I spun anything my own way here.
I used what your articles actually said (away from the headlines).

This probably sums it up:

"There is a logical explanation," he continues in fairly fluent English. "Simply my enemies of yesterday became my friends. And the friends of yesterday became really my enemies."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703915204575103481069258868.html

 

Israel may now support the PLO or whats left of it (post Sharon), but it does not support the UN. Mind you neither does anyone else.

 

I think everyone - included the US, Israel - recognize that HAMAS is a duly elected government. So Israel & the US begin enforcing rules that a duly elected government should follow. B/S!! The US or Israel can no more enforce rules of conduct on a democratically elected governing body than can HAMAS tell the US or Israel how to govern its people or possessions.

As a part of these "rules" the US and Israel enforce a blockade of Gaza - which leads to unemployment, hunger, illness and a disproportionate civilian casualty rate among the Palestinians. All this to make HAMAS bow and defer their right to govern to foreign powers which do not have the best interest of the Palestinian people in mind. What gonads Israel has to take the lands the Palestinians have had for over 2000 years and THEN demand that the crumbs that are left, are to be governed as Israel pleases.

There is no fairness, there is no conciliation in what Odon advocates. Why not just have a final solution to the Palestinian problem and end it once and for all. Perhaps it will succeed with the US at Israel's beck and call.

Quoting time after time the rhetoric of the Israeli spin machine does not make one an expert on middle eastern affairs.

The people of Palestine voted - VOTED - in free elections - for dignity for themselves and their posterity. And the Israeli apologist continue to mimic whatever putrid commentary of events the Israeli's spew.

Who is suffering??? The Palestinians or the Israelis. That is the true observation of who is aggressor and who is the victim.

 

If Israel didn't create "hamas," then it definitely had a hand in the creation of that phony organization.

What are you going to tell us next ?

Are you going to tell us that Israel's leadership was acting that way because they were looking out for the best interests of the Palestinians ?

Israel wasn't seeking to drive a wedge in the Palestinian leadership, nor was it seeking to destroy the Palestinians by pitting them against each other.

Israel was acting selflessly, and only with the very best of intentions.

Isn't that right ?

I'd better get up right now before I barf all over my computer.

 

In a war (and make no mistake about it ... this is a war), everything that your enemy says is geared toward one thing and only one thing ... it is geared toward the end-goal of destroying you ... and that's why ... as a general rule ... it isn't very wise to accept your enemy's ideas or to acquiesce in the version of reality that your enemy is seeking to impose upon you.

Wake up, man !

Can't you see that Odon is deliberately lying to you ?

 

I don't see that Odon is lying to anyone, and I'm pleased that he's taken the time to provide us with what appears to be factual background, with no electronic screaming or shouting -- unlike some of the other posters here.

 

Ofcourse nations do. They go running to it at the drop of a hat.
Ok, cynicism aside, ofcourse nations nations support it...they may disagree with it from time to time, but that is healthy.
The American people (for e.g) might not all support it, and the American government might dismiss it at home. That might be true.
But that's keeping Americans happy and a vote winner, imho.

That's not the point.

What am I advocating?
I hope you are not putting words into my mouth...

I never said I was.
Nobody here is.
I'm also not quoting the "Israeli spin machine".
Please don't lose the plot and end up just dropping any sense of fairness here..we were doing so well too.

It's politics at the end of the day. It's going to be a little selfish.
But I would say it was for the right reasons, just not done very well.
It seems there will always be the same games being played and similar groups wishing to do the same thing. This decade and the last it is/was Hamas and in the past it was the PLO.
You have to wonder if groups like the PLO switch sides (as it were)...who is in the wrong and who is in the right (overall).

I'm not lying. You half heartadly agreed with me you silly man. Lol.

First you say you can provide an article that states Israel created Hamas, now you say: "If Israel didn't create "hamas," the..."
Were YOU lying or just wrong?
I can respect if you say you were wrong, but not now switching to: " then it definitely had a hand in the creation of that phony organization."
It's digging yourself out of a ditch with more speculation...that'll probably turn out to be less than accurate too.
Ok, go find an article that shows "it definitely had a hand in the creation of that phony organization."

 

Thanks. Yeah, I have no agenda here or opinion to protect to lie.

 

Odon has a very nasty habit of reaching deep into his bag of "dirty tricks" and then pulling out a bunch of irrational "spin" that was produced by the same group of people who got us to invade Iraq and Afghanistan.

Does the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) really constitute "factual information" .... ?

I'm sorry ... but the WSJ isn't exactly what I would call "factual information."

It bears a greater resemblance to propaganda than it does to "fact."

 

- Hamas is responsible for the deaths of many Palestinians.

- Hamas is treasonous to the Arabs.

- Hamas is always doing everything that it possibly can to provoke a military response by Israel.

- Ergo ... it is only logical to infer that "Hamas" is acting as a tool of the Zionists.

Please allow me to reiterate this very important point with regard to "Hamas" and "Hezbollah" and "Fatah" and "Al Qaeda," etc, etc. ... UNTIL YOU CAN DEMONSTRATE HOW THESE ORGANIZATIONS HAVE BEEN HARMFUL TO THE INTERESTS OF ISRAEL, IT IS PERFECTLY LOGICAL TO INFER THAT THEY ARE ALL WORKING ON BEHALF OF THE ZIONISTS !

 

Pot/Kettle me thinks.

I wasn't the only one using the WSJ.
It was used to prove the alternative view too.
Infact I was throwing the same artice back in the face of the allegation, by just reading it differently.
Prove it wrong then.
Post your more factual Reuters articles.
I notice you have not so far.
Would it be your articles are running along the same lines as the WSJ when it claims Israel created Hamas?

 

I realize that my viewpoint is totally contrary to the crap that was fed to us by the "mainstream news" ... but here goes ....

I don't believe that Hezbollah did any harm to Israel at all.

Hezbollah was simply acting as "bait" which led to the mass murder of Lebanon's civilian population, and also to the destruction of Beirut's infrastructure.

 

Not what I asked, or what we were talking about,
Please stick to the point...thanks.

 

People are being killed - Palestinians and Israelis'. Rockets are being fired, homes are being bulldozed.

Everybody has an opinion in these circumstances, including you. How can anyone not have an opinion. It would go a long way toward lending your "facts" validity if you would just admit that you have a tendency to lean one way or the other.

To say you have no opinion - no predilection at all is impossible - your credibility goes right out the window. At least show the courtesy of being honest.

 

Ok, yes I do have an opinion.
I meant that my opinion can be changed.
I don't have to lie to anybody to maintain my original opinion so that my opinion doesn't have to change.
My opinion isn't protected by lies.
E.g: If somebody proved Israel created Hamas I would say: "Fair enough".
Does that make more sense?

 

It's impossible to "prove" that Israel created Hamas, i.e. unless someone with a top-secret security clearance decides to leak that information into the public domain and the document is shown to be authentic after careful expert scrutiny; but until that happens, we can cite an old Reuters news release which states that Hamas received funding from the state of Israel during its inception. We can also point out the manner in which Hamas is acting against the best interests of the people whom it is said to (allegedly) represent. I would also argue that it's virtually impossible to "prove" just about anything when you get right down to it, except perhaps in some very specialized areas in the fields of science and mathematics.

 

israel has always been a violent place, why expect them to change now? wether it's they or their european or american jewish counterparts. they always feel the need to expand outward in every direction and have some control over as much as possible. it's a strategy that works everytime, it's just too bad for them people the world over. including many of their own are starting to tire of it. wether it's the looting of banks and treasuries, war racketering, funding and instigating revolutions or espionage. the jewish mentality is all too often one revolving around greed and selfishness.

i say let more benjamin freedman's crawl out of the woodwork

 

http://www.ameu.org/page.asp?iid=249&aid=358&pg=3

<< "Rokach concludes from Sharett’s journal that the Israeli political establishment never seriously believed in an Arab threat to the existence of Israel. She writes that Israel deliberately attempted to drive the Arab states into confrontations and wars in order to dominate the Middle East. Such ambitions could not be achieved on the basis of the earlier Jewish moral superiority doctrine and thus 'inevitably presupposed the use of large scale, open violence.' According to Rokach, 'Terrorism and revenge were now to be glorified as the new moral…and even sacred values of Israeli society.' Such a transformation of the Israeli population could not be achieved automatically, but required a generation of fear and anxiety on the part of its population and its supporters. They also understood that the:

<< '... lives of Jewish victims also had to be sacrificed to create provocations justifying subsequent reprisals… A hammering, daily propaganda, controlled by the censors, was directed to feed the Israeli population with images of the monstrosity of the Enemy.'" 9 >>

 

So when you say things like:

I can legitimately call you a liar?

BigCityHillbilly, you are a liar.
A rotten stinking liar.
How can anybody trust anything you say if you blatanly tell lies?
...and you have the audacity to call ME a liar.

Post the article(s) ... they probably won't say that either. More lies?

First highlight Israel funded Hamas (not its predecessor) first.

You should have acknowledged that from the start and not been such a big-headed loud mouth and spouted off about things you can't prove.
Atleast people may see that you are a liar now.
I can and have just proved that.
Well you did, actually.

I hope I won't read the same claim you initialy made from you ever again.
I have a funny feeling I will, though.
You clearly don't have the same principles that I and most people have around here.

 

War isn't pretty. This was an act of war, and unfortunately innocent people die in war. It happens not only in Israel, but in Iraq, Burma, Pakistan, Darfur, and many other places around the world.

I hope that one day we live in a world where human life valued over territory, race, religion, and so on. Until that day, we'll always hear about the atrocities of war.