I've always whether people who claim to be vegetarians are concerned about the fact that farming vegetables oppresses so many people. Many of the people who harvest vegetables are seasonal labourers who get paid next to nothing and are forced to live in slum-like conditions in order to have enough money to eat and still have some to send back to their family in Mexico or whereever. I worked at a mushroom farm once and was appalled at the conditions; I don't think I'll ever be able to eat mushrooms ever again.
Well animals still have to eat, so if humans are being exploited in the production of non-animal foods, then eating meat will result in even more humans being exploited, since more of that food will need producing in order to feed than animals that supply our meat! As a general point of principle though, most vegetarians are very compassionate people, and so also care greatyl about human suffering and exploitation.
Agreed I try to only eat vegetables grown eithier locally or at least in the UK. So the welfare conditions are good as possible (workers here have well enforced rights and such)
Much of the food eaten by cattle etc. is grains and this is harvested by the farmer with machinery and perhaps a few family members/friends/skilled labourers. But that's beside the point. I guess what I'm saying is that vegetables are also produced using factory-farm techniques, and this has social and potentially health ramifications.
That depends entirely what part of the world you live in. It's not beside the point at all. You asked whether vegetarians care about those people who're exploited in the non-animal food industry. I pointed out that animals also require feeding, and thus consume food that may also have been produced unethically. Therefore eating meat does not preclude the indirect consumption of non-meat foods. Also, due to the nutritionally inefficient nature of meat production, proportionately more foodstuffs will be required to stick a pound of steak on your table than to stick a pund of veg on your table. As I said though, vegetarians are generally people who're strongly motivated by compassion. As a result, you'll usually find that most of us care very strongly about human exploitation as well as animal expolitation.
Well, you a person can claim to be whatever they wish, but actions speak louder than words, though. Most vegetarians willingly eat vegetables that were harvested by exploited workers, most of whom are immigrants who have few prospects for a better future because they are being exploited. Sorry, cows don't eat beets. Most farm animals are raised on grains, and this grain is often grown by the farmer himself. Grain production usually doesn't require large amounts of seasonal labour in terms of under-paid, exploited immigrant workers. Also, the nutritional value of the meat produced is much higher than amount of feed used on the animal, and the amount of land required to raise say, for example, ten head of cattle is much less than it would take to raise the same amount of vegetables in terms of nutritional value. But I'm not here to debate the merits of meat. I was just curious how vegetarians feel about eating vegetables that have been harvested by exploited labour.
So you're not actually here to ask a question at all. You already have pre-formulated opinions of vegetarians, and in reality you've just comehere to criticise us.
maybe workers are exploited in the fields, but i'm sure working in a slaughter house isn't exactly a spring picnic. of course it bothers me that workers are being exploited, and if i can avoid eating vegetables produced that way i will, but as doktor atomic said, that entirely depends on what part of the world you live in. animals are killed when vegetables are farmed too, i'm not sure if you're aware. i'm willing to admit that, and i'm willing to admit that i'm sure animals have died to get the salad onto my dinner table, but the point of vegetarianism isn't to eliminate suffering. the point is to minimize it. if it came down to me eating a tomato that a guy had to work hard for next to nothing to produce, or eat a cow that lived in horrible conditions and then died painfully to be made into a burger, i'd go with the tomato. maybe that makes me a bad person, who knows. just further on vegetables, you are aware that meat eaters also consume vegetables, right? i don't mean this to sound like a nasty post, i just feel like you're trying to make us look bad under the guise of asking a harmless question.
No, that's not true at all. I didn't come here to criticize anyone, just to pose a question about the ethics of eating vegetables.
You're very right; I've talked to a person--an immigrant--who found work killing chicken. It was quite gruesome what he described, but he needed the work, and so did it. I don't think that I'm trying to make anyone look bad; it's just that I've seen how people are exploited harvesting vegetables, and have never heard a vegetarian complain about the ethics of this. So I thought I'd ask.
really?? i think ill just have to switch to that dirt only diet ive heard of, very high in nutrients you know, although ive heard some bowel problems can be a side effect... ya cant win em all man, theres an up, and a down to everything if you seek it out. hopefully the free trade movement will begin to reach out to more farmers on a larger scale as the coffee has
I think you will find that vegetarians do care about the treatment of people. But the harvesting of all food is exploitive to someone here in America. It is the captialistic way... the greatest benefits come from abusing the workers. If you want to read about abused workers, I suggest you read Fast Food Nation and see what the meat packers put up with. I know the life of migrant workers is hard and untolerable but that does not mean it is worse than the ethics of eating meat. At the very least, no one has to die to produce the veggies on my plate. I'll admit that some people were disadvantaged and sweated for almost nothing to put the veggies there. It is not something I am in a position to ignore (being in the field of education means I see how children are abused by this system and not just adults). But it is still better than the killing and tortorous conditions in the meat industry. I would love to see the whole system turned about and everyone get paid a fair amount for the work they do. But until it happens, I have to choose the path of least evil.
Well, the migrant workers are working for the same reasons - they need work. I also agree you should read Fast Food Nation and read about the conditions in the meat packing industry. At least migrant workers arn't getting stabbed, mamed and killed at the alarming rate meatpacking workers are.
I don't want to start a whole argument over this, but I don't think that it makes the suffering that non-meat industry workers face any more justified just because it isn't "as bad" as that faced by those working in the meat industry. I don't know how many people die in the meat industry, but a number of people working on farms die or get maimed every year; they fall off equipment, get run-over, get caught in machinery. Besides, these people have to work from dawn till dusk harvesting, sometimes under a blazing sun; the potential long-term health effects are significant as well. Moreover, their work is seasonal, whereas people who work in the meat industry are usually working much of the year.
It almost sound like you think that only vegetarians eat vegetables. The exploitation of farm workers is not a concern only for vegetarians. Vegetarian / veganism is a dietary choice. One can buy all of one's food at Safeway (big supermarket chain, for those from afar) and still be a vegetarian. Sustanable farm practices, which include organic farming and farm labour issues, are a concern for all people who eat. Just as there are farmers who grow and harvest vegetables using sustainable practices, there is sustainably produced meat. Labor practices in the argriculture industry is not a defining issue for vegie vs. omni . If you are concerned about this, KNOW YOUR FOOD! Know how it was grown, harvested and processed. That probably means know the farmer which means buying local.
That's the thing; I'd love to buy locally, but the farmland near my city is being gobbled up by development for the sake of economic "progress". That means buying apples grown on the other side of the continent, where twenty years ago there used to be numerous orchards less than 50 km away. Of course non-vegetarians eat vegetables, and it concerns me too; but I always here them going on about the ethics of the meat industry, but never anything about unethical non-meat farming practices.
" I don't want to start a whole argument over this, but I don't think that it makes the suffering that non-meat industry workers face any more justified just because it isn't "as bad" as that faced by those working in the meat industry. " so then what exactly should we eat? if we don't eat vegetables because of exploited farm workers, then we eat meat and eat the suffering of animals and of meat workers. you're really making no sense any more. we're vegetarians because we care for the plight of abused, exploited and murdered animals. if you're concerned about exploited farm workers then make that your life's 'big issue'. if course i care about farm workers. i care about anyone in trouble, thing is though, that i'd rather eat veggies where i can lower the suffering of animals AND humans, rather than meat where i'm causing death and human pain. do you see where i'm coming from? i'm not out there to eliminate suffering altogether. i step on as many ants as the next girl, but if i can lessen suffering then i will. if i can buy veggies from a farm, then of course i will, they're probably better for me anyway, but i care more about dying animals then i do about uncomfortable field workers.
So you're more concerned about the welfare of an animal with basically no intelligence and and little more than the ability to stand around and eat and discharge waste all day than your fellow man who is forced to live a marginal life of poverty, misery, and who has little chance of offering a better life to their offspring because they're locked into a cycle of poverty? That doesn't sound very compassionate to me.
People who see food animals as suffering CAN do something about it. They choose not to eat meat. You, among others including Cesar Chavez, see the suffering of ag. workers. What can one do about that suffering? You admitted that your awareness of their conditions did not change your apple buying habits. The suffering of food animals can be acted on much easier than the evils of the farm labour industry. By the way, you and I probably do agree that there are some vegetarians (even some on this forum) who project an attitude of moral superiority that is annoying (to say the least). I doubt that your pointing out that there is more to ethics than diet will affect those particular block-heads. Seriously, if you have suggestions about what we can do about farm labour exploitation, please let folks know.
