Communes That Succeeded

AlchemistGeorge, Thank you for your answers. It appears that you are part of an interesting group of people.

I hope you don't mind, but I googled you and found that you have some kind of training in the field of being a psychic. I have also found that I am pretty good at reading people, although I don't claim any particular paranormal abilities. Most of what I do is based on game theory, demographics, probability and other parts of life.

So, I ask you, AlchemistGeorge, have you figured it out yet?

The Shadow knows...

 

AlchemistGeorge, I tell you what, let me do a bit of a reading on you...

You are about 50, and you have been married a number of times. You are not married to the woman with whom you now live. You grew up on the East Coast of the United States. You have a background in the marital arts. You and the lady in your life have been spending some time at a cabin in the woods.

Have a nice weekend!

 

you google well

 

AlchemistGeorge, Actually, very little googling was required.

The Shadow knows...

 

AlchemistGeorge, There have been quite a few times in my life where I have lived with a group of people, and I like doing that. When I was younger, I worked at summer camps. In college, I lived with groups of people, and I did more of that after college.

However, it seems like the groups always start with the best of intentions, and people kind of drift apart and go off in other directions. So, how do you find the right kinds of people to live with?

 

AlchemistGeorge, Based on my experience, I can see that there are definitely advantages to living with people you like and get along with. However, I have also noticed that many communal groups seem to have a thing about rejecting much of what is going on in the society because they think it's bad.

Please understand, I, along with just about everybody else, realize that there are many problems that exist in our country and the world. However, it has not been demonstrated to me that it is either possible or even beneficial to truly "drop out." I am all for doing things to improve the environment, help the needy and to support other good causes. Do you have anything to say about the idea of rejecting the greater society that often seems to be associated with (rightfully or wrongfully) communal living?

Another image that seems to be associated with communes is the whole about rejecting material things, having to be a vegetarian, etc. I'm the kind of person who tries not to be all hung up on possessions, but, bottom line, I like my color TV, my computer and other creature comforts. I also do the best that I can to live a healthy lifestyle, but, like most other people, I do not want to be in situations where somebody is telling me that I must eat, vote or think a certain way because somebody or a group of people insist I must do it their way(s).

I would appreciate your thoughts on any of this.

 

I'm not sure that we are going to hear more from AlchemistGeorge, although I'd welcome his thoughts. For all the rest of you who are interested in this subject, do have any ideas on what a workable, even ideal, communal living situation might look like?

From what I can tell, we all want to have a certain amount of freedom and privacy, and we want those things to be respected. On the other hand, living with others also means that somebody has to take out the garbage, wash the dishes, pay the bills, etc. It appears to me that one of the main reasons that most communal experiments are relatively short-lived is that people go into those situations with unrealistic expectations.

 

The main problem with keeping one going, is that the people who join up, for the most part, don't even have a concept of what it means to live on your own in the first place.

When they realize that there are things that simply just must be done, everyday or every week, over and over and over again, the luster of the idea falls away.

It's nice to see people jump up and say I want to go to a place like this, but it means nothing, as the majority of those who say that, never do anything more then just that... say it...

Out of those who do actually get in motion and do anything, a majority quickly realize that the idea of it sounded a lot better then the reality did, as they didn't have any idea beyond "move to the country and live with friends"...

However, for the few who are truly suited to it, and do actually get in motion with open eyes and minds, the rewards are endless.

The main thing that most places seem to miss, is that you can't just take a random group of people and do this with much success (it can happen but it is extremely rare)... What you need is people who actually enjoy a complimentary part of what needs to be done...

In other words... You can't have a dozen people who all raise laying hens or gardening or any other thing (or small group of things)... (once again, it could work, but is rare)...

You need to combine someone who likes raising chickens, someone else who likes gardening, someone who like gathering wood, someone who likes cleaning, someone who likes mechanical work and so on...

To make the whole thing even worse (in terms of getting one going and keeping it going), is that fact that no matter how much the majority of people say they want to be independent and free to do whatever they want, their actions show that they would much rather have something and someone to follow.

 

Perhaps an extended period of education/orientation is called for- in part to weed out those not ready to pull their own weight and in part to educate others- and enable them to begin cultivating skills rendered nearly extinct by an infrastructure that softens our drive for survival through the reinforcement of the fallacy that food and shelter are to be taken for granted.

 

This would be great... for those who actually made it as far as showing up.

The thing that gets me is that people somehow expect that the first place they check out should be perfect, at least in terms of their own view. How often in life are things 'just right' first time out?

If someone is interested in the idea of living with others and sharing the workload, find one, any one, and go join for a while... If things work out and everything is happy, great... if you enjoy the life, but not the people or specifics of the first one, go find another one, before things get bad enough to cause bad feelings on either side.

The only time you need to worry, is if they tell you something like you can't communicate with the outside world, or you aren't allowed to leave or things like that...

Anyone can learn the skills that are needed... if they want to...

 

Chronic Tom, I agree with you. To me, it makes a lot of sense to live with people you like, even love, but you first have to be willing to like or love them.

When I was younger, I worked at summer camps and resorts during the summers, and, when I was in college, I was in a fraternity. All of those experiences were a lot of fun, but they all came with some sort of built in time limit. The idea of going through life with others on a more permanent basis sounds like a wonderful thing to do.

 

We all seek order and purpose for our lives. Community is about like minded people committed with a well thought out philosophy. People on the same page.

Alchemist George states an important axiom of Intentional communities. Using much less resources and more leisure time because of the division of resources and work. Compare a IC to the 'normal' nuclear household. Everyone doesn't need to buy their own materials like shovels, taxes, insurance, sewing machine, daycare, lawnmowers, vehicles, car repairs etc. Shareing resources among members saves much cost and money and paychecks to buy things. Farmers figured out the benefits of Co-Ops long ago.

 

See, this is where you start to lose me...

Lets say you find a group (or build one) who have, as you say, a well thought out philosophy...

What happens in a year (or maybe a month) when someone's thoughts take them away from whatever that 'unifying' philosophy is?

This goes back to what I was saying about people looking too hard in an attempt to find 'the' perfect place for them right off the bat. It tends to cause people to lose sight of the fact that it isn't supposed to be trading one form of following for another. Or at least it shouldn't be.

A community is a group of people who choose to work and live together in spite of the fact that they aren't the same people with the same thoughts. With the exception of core ideals of course.

The more 'qualifications' you put on those who you want around you in your community, the less 'free' of a community it is and the less individuality there is.

 

ChronicTom and Indydude, I think that we agree on many general concepts, including the idea that it would probably be a good idea to shop around a bit for an intentional community that would help facillitate what we are looking for in life. I don't know about everybody else, but I'm looking for fun, companionship, good friendships, opportunities to express my creativity, doing something to make the world a slightly better place...like that.

In my case, I like cooking and doing other things in the kitchen, even washing dishes. I like gardening, entertaining, volunteering for a charity and quite a few other things. I don't particularly like working on cars or other machinery. We all have lists of things like that that we do or do not like.

ChronicTom, it seems to me a unifying philosophy can exist that is encompassing enough to include everybody and still allow for the freedom of individuals. I think most of us figure out that we are not all the same people with the same thoughts. Who would want it to be that way anyhow?

If we are going to consider core ideas, I'd start with something like "Love yourself, love others and respect and appreciate those people and attributes that are different from you. Things like apologies and forgiveness also have a way of being quite beneficial.

 

Love, respect and appreciation come as a result of actions, not as a condition to look at the world at...

I think you misunderstood what I meant by core ideals... Differences don't matter, unless those differences center around core beliefs... for example... I am 100% against child abuse of any type, with no lenience for those who believe otherwise... That, is a core ideal, to me... If people clash with that, then that difference certainly does matter...

I think it makes more sense to reduce our reliance on money as more of a priority then earning more... but it isn't something I really care about in other people one way or another. It isn't a core ideal. It doesn't matter...

I could list off a couple of thousand things I would rather people didn't do that they choose to (and thousands more of things I wish they would), but that has nothing to do with what I expect out of other people.

There are certain things that everyone must agree on, such as contributions of work, materials or whatever, but to start saying, you have to think just like me, flies in the face of getting away from babylon in the first place.

I want people around me that I can trust, who put as much effort into things that benefit everyone as I do... The trust part is all about the core ideals... anything else, is irrelevant.

Think of this... Let's say that someone wants to come here who thinks as you do, that respect, forgiveness and so on are 'gifts' to be handed out on whims (as opposed to a reward for actions and choices), how do I ever trust them in regards to anyone else?

... that sounds confusing to me and I wrote it....

I want to know that if person 'X' tells me that person 'Y' (whom I don't know as well as 'X' does) can be trusted, that it means that if I knew everything about 'Y' as 'X' does, that I would trust them myself...

I have either smoked too much or not enough... it all just sounds like babble right now...

It can all be summed up pretty simple for me... You don't initiate (or instigate) violence, or problems in general, against others, either in or out of the community... You don't judge anyone on anything other then their own actions and choices... You put as much effort into things that benefit us all, as we do...

Beyond that? Be yourself...

If you start going beyond that, you are falling down a slope that ends in a place that looks a lot like the 'normal' world...

 

If more people could just grasp this then there would be far fewer problems in general I think. If I were going to subject other people to my quirks and annoyances on an everyday basis I'll at very least try to leave them with a sense that they broke even.

 

ChronicTom, Look, I'm a guy who thinks there are advantages to living with other people who you like, admire, love, respect, etc. That doesn't mean I'm some kind of mindless pollyanna who is oblivious to the way people are.

I also don't want to live with child abusers. I also don't want to live with people who are wife beaters, dog kickers, crystal meth makers, axe murderers and on and on. I am most definitely not in favor of violence.

I don't think that such things as love and respect are gifts to be passed out as whims, but I do the best that I can to live my life with love and respect for myself and others. That doesn't mean that I cast a blind eye to the realities of the world.

Funny thing...actually, not so funny...but they busted a crystal meth lab in my neighborhood awhile back. I didn't even know about the bust until about 3 days after it happened. A guy down the street knocked up his own daughter. Hey, I don't approve of these things, but I'm living in a world where they exist anyhow.

Beyond that? I think that being yourself is a wonderful thing to do; in fact, I don't know how to be anybody else. I'm not exactly sure what qualifies, for you, as "the normal world," but all things being equal, I'd rather have a sound system, a color TV, a computer and lots of other things that are available in our contemporary world. I'm not looking to reject the world or drop out; I prefer to make better use of what is already available in the world, and, in so doing, I do not want to harm others.

 

Greetings Tom
I'll try my best to answer based on my experience's wth IC's

People change their minds. They move on. Most young people go through phases. The elders are the foundation. Two kinds of IC members. Those who are there less then a year and those you've been members at least 5 years. Not many in between those demographics. I myself stayed a little less then a year. Because I wasn't ready to settle down. I wanted to be a road dog and go to college and chase girls.

Thats the key. Core ideas = unifying philosophy. Your odds of sustaining an IC are greater with like minded people.

 

Hello LaMont Cranston

I tend to think of core ideas as the things that define the IC. The mission purpose. Or main principles.

I want those things too and more but in order to buy and maintain those I have to work most of the day to pay for them. Thats the reality of the normal world. An IC acquires and shares together. In a co-op way. Say five people or five couples dont each need to buy those things separately. The IC can pool resources and share which frees up time to be able to enjoy life instead of working it away.

 

If I could accept that as written and believe that people would keep in mind that core ideas do not include simple lifestyle choices, then I would agree...

However... We, as a species have proven time and again that we don not keep those thoughts in check, in terms of not letting them carry on further then basic principals of life.

When people start talking about unifying principals, philosophies, way of life etc, fields of red flags jump up and wave their asses off for attention.

Obviously there has to be a connection between the people involved... the thing to watch though, is where that line is placed...

If it is placed somewhere that dictates people personal choices beyond the happiness and safety of the rest of the people, then it is only a matter of time before everyone except those in charge decide to leave and look for other places...

As an example... I am quite comfortable saying that someone who is here sharing our house with us, is not allowed to make the choice to do hard chemical drugs, get drunk on a regular basis and so on... because it is our home... However, if that person has their own home here on the property, what they do there is only their business as long as it isnt a threat of some type to the rest (running a crack lab for example is a threat to everyone...)

That will exclude people... I am well aware of it... just like I am well aware that if someone down the road, decides that they just MUST run a crack lab and seems I say they can't here, they will have to leave. And I am totally fine with that...

Somewhere through this all, the point was supposed to come through that I wasn't saying that there should be no thought given to finding people you get along with (note that is not think just the same as)... I am saying that the more criteria you have (either for finding one to move to, or making your own), the more people you are excluding.

Read through the various threads in this forum and you will see why I feel it is important to point these things out...

There are people who would make a community of nothing but a bunch of clones of themselves, and then try to claim it is about being free... Being free to be who you are, and being free to be who someone else thinks you should be, are totally separate things...

I wasn't just being a smartass a while back when I pointed out that the places that offer people something to follow (god, drugs, meditation, etc), do attract more people... they do... the majority of people do not want to be free in order to be free... they want it in order to follow a different path then they are currently on.... summed up nicely by the cliche, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence...

Where the hell are the people who just simply want a place to build a home around people they can trust and share the burden of survival while living their life as they choose?