God and Communism

Justice is justice, and not injustice,
Because it is naturally self-evident to everybody.

We define differently, the same one sense of "justice."

So you agree that there should be a separation of Church and State?
So you agree that it's important that people should at least try to faithfully fulfill justice over injustice?

I think we have a contradiction.
(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apologetics)

I think you now have a long list of unanswered questions.

 

A different approach is needed here, so, since your inquiry is of a philosophical nature here is my philosophical answer:

There is no justice, no injustice, only reality. A thing, act, condition, is what it is because that is what it is. There is no good, no evil, only reality. Justice and injustice are definitions that we impose on the realities we experience. You might judge a rose to be beautiful, but the rose has no such intent or judgment, it simply exists. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, therefore without someone to see it and pass judgment on it, beauty does not exist. Justice is merely a thought, not a reality.

More so than most.

Not really. I believe that we must maintain a certain degree order in society, the method and degree is negotiable between the members of each society.

I don't see one.

You might, I don't.

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the Nazis persecuted Jesuits, Catholic Action (a religious and social movement), and various other Catholic organizations.

After enduring anti-church actions for several years, in 1937 Pope Pius XI issued the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge (With Burning Concern). In the encyclical, Pius XI criticized Nazi philosophy and warned the German government to fulfill the terms of the Concordat. The Nazis responded with a wave of priest trials--prosecutions of clergy for various alleged infractions.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005206

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Christian opposition to the Nazi movement was not as vigorous or as unanimous as a contemporary Christian would prefer. Nevertheless, the Nazi movement was not a Christian movement, and Hitler was not a Christian by any definition of "Christain" that merits respect. Those who argue otherwise do so in order to express their hatred for Christianity.

 

Hitler made all sorts of agreements that he didn't intend to keep. Pope Pius XI learned what happens when one climbs into bed with scoundrels.

I'm not arguing that Hitler was a Christian, only that the Christian community, including The Catholic Church, supported his rise to power and his wars, until he turned on them.

Church and state often form partnerships and agreements because both are seeking to increase their power and influence. One will always loose. With Hitler, the Church lost.

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There is no responsibility, no irresponsibility, only reality?

Order maintains the existence of a society?
Yet their is no need for common responsibility to an ideal of order, society, or existence?

Existence must always exist, it can never lack itself (existence - existence = 0).
And since existence can never lack existence,
It must always be ideal (perfect).

Likewise, "order" can never lack itself (order - order = 0)
or it would also not have existence,
It must also always be ideal.

The ideal of "order" is a standard for which we would be responsible,
Even though, in reality, we may only see an certain degree of it.

The amount of order in society is realized between it's members,
When they follow the standard of "order,"
Which includes removing disorder.

I would say that I have tried to defend Catholic teachings,
And I would defend the Catholic teaching,
That people who try to always follow an ideal of justice (lacking injustice),
Even when it may not be apparent in reality,
May obtain heaven, regardless of whether they are associated with any religion.

 

So, you're a Catholic Apologist.

The kind of logic that you are trying to use here is what I heard from 1st year philosophy students trying to impress their friends; trying to prove the unprovable with circular logic, sorry, it just doesn't work. In order to prove anything about Catholicism, you first need to prove that God exists, and that remains to be seen.

I just have to ask why you feel it necessary to "defend the Catholic teaching?" Nobody here has attacked it until you brought it up, and you certainly have the right to believe as you see fit. Nobody is going to dip you in tar and feathers and run you out of town for attending Sunday Mass.

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Speak for yourself, Jack. As a "Christian" - outside of the U.S. that is* - his beliefs, and consequently he, is evil and thus richly deserving of the death he supports for for "sinners" and renegade Rat Catchers (RC's) like me!

* some Calvinazis say Caffliks are finally recognised as Christians in America since they sided with Adolf against the goddamn Red hordes of Christ denyin' Commies.

 

Although some religions can be quite promoting of violence and discrimination sometimes, not all of their members are. I have the impression that Psychotheosophy is a well-meaning individual. Albeit I disagree with his philosophy, he does tenaciously for his perception of Justice. I find that to be an admirable quality these days, particularly in young people.

That happened with the election of President John F. Kennedy in 1960. They were already accepted in mainstream culture, at "arms length" so to speak, and Kennedy, a Catholic, was a very popular president.

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The sense of justice over injustice is simple and self-evident to everybody,
The more we move away from justice (simple and self-evident),
The less justice we have (division and confusion),
And we will find very little justice in war.

Since we all naturally desire justice,
To equate injustice with justice,
Makes war naturally desired.

History may help us to understand justice,
But a sense of justice should always guide us throughout history.

 

Define Justice without using the words justice, injustice or any of their synonyms.

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goodness, like justice, is in the eye of the beholder

:sombrero: juan valdez for president

 

I should clarify,
Regardless of whether or not they are associated with religion itself.

The view that injustice is justice is false,
So all views of justice are not valid.

How do you distinguish between injustice and justice?

 

you're not sucking me into this conversation

that's justice

 

You started this thread, and the issue of Justice, therefore you should pose a definition of Justice and Injustice. This is your argument, yet, you have put forth no definitions.

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Jack, if you answer, keep in mind I was expelled in eighth grade and thereafter had no formal education except for several trade courses. So I hope you will pardon the comparatively raw, unsophisticated form of my arguments.

Am I reading correctly that you recommend loving the Christian but loathing the Christianity? If so, isn't that the same as loving the Nazi but loathing the Nazism?

Surely if wilfully ignorant, goose-stepping individual Nazis were/are deserving of death for blindly supporting Nazism, then the same universal “morality” and “decency” dictates the same should apply to equally lockstep, equally indiscriminate Christians.

After all, Christians unquestioningly support a far worse philosophy than Nazism, such as torturing their “evil” adversaries for all eternity for daring to be different to them. Isn't that evocative of the Nazi's genocidal Meister-Rasse philosophy?

Isn't intellectual zombies grovellingly agreeing with a “god” - known to change his fevered mind if a handful of reicheous people disagree with his plans – tantamount with complicency to murder? Isn't the essence of evil what we believe to be decent; doesn't all “evil” proceed from there?

If so, why should Bible God, the most evil entity ever, and his self-seekingly sycophantic, devil-dodging devotees get a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card? :scholar:

 

Formal, informal, self education, makes little difference to me, all can be equally valid and rewarding.

What I'm saying is to judge each individual according to his deeds, not his beliefs about myths and fairy tales. I've been an atheist for my entire life in the "Bible Belt," so I've experienced more than my share of discrimination. Christians are a very diverse group; while some may curse you for not believing as they do, others are pretty tolerant. The bottom line here is that I cannot ask for tolerance and not give it in return.

If they commit acts equal in barbarity as the Nazis, I agree; but one cannot, and should not, be punished for matters that remain in the realm of opinion and belief.

What one believes will happen after death has no consequences what-so -ever for me.

I don't believe that Stalin, or Hitler, had any religious intentions while on their murderous rampages.

For their acts, no; for their beliefs, yes.

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SHEEZ!! What a pernickety old spoilsport!! What's wrong with a bit of collective punishment - as practised against "sinners" by our sickeningly pietistic, ultra arrogant Calvinazi opponents?

You say

I say supremacist Christians* cannot ask for tolerance and not give it in return.

I mean Gawd fuck me, Foley! Their fascistic philosophy is the most intolerant known to humankind!! They even condemn babies to eternal torture because of an unimaginably minor transgression, in human terms, against their totally uncorroborated God!

If it is de rigueur and dutiful to globally murder Muslims, ALLEGEDLY for what a handful of them did on "9/11, " then why ain't us decent atheists donning the hood and at least doing a bit of anti-Christian night riding?? :grouphug:

*includes the pretentious "decent" pricks who claim to be "Christian" without bothering to read what it's all about; those scabby-gutted, social acceptance seeking maggots who would commit infanticide if it was socially acceptable and "respectable."

 

Wouldn't that make us just like them??

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I'm fucking positive if us inferior folk were like them they wouldn't be like they are. :reddevil:

 

You would have this discussion with others, but not with me?
I must be held to a higher standard, because I've been labeled?
Because my ways threaten you?

that's justice?

Let me try to meet your higher standards.

Simply put, the Catholic view,
Is that all people have a ideal sense of justice,
Which we believe is the Cross of Christ.
And only through His Cross,
May people obtain heaven.
Furthermore, anyone in the world,
Including anyone who disagrees with Catholicism,
Who genuinely tries to follow a sense for justice,
(And nobody follows justice perfectly).
Shares in the same eternal reward.

Now, if Catholicism is not true, then it is not true.

But the fact remains that all people have a sense of justice,
And those who seek it in the world can bring peace,
And if we don't discuss justice,
There can be no justice.

I think (and I could be wrong),
That you believe in justice over injustice.
I have no intention of "making you" Catholic, if that's your concern.
So, maybe it would be better to focus on the process of conversation instead?