Anti-feminist/post-feminist women?

Are there many women out there that find feminism's mission achieved;
find that women are favored by western society these days (especially socially);
that the patriarchal society has been effectively destroyed;
or that modern-day feminism can be more harmful to gender relations than anything?


I am a big believer that men are viewed as macho misogynist, violent, good-for-nothing pigs by much of the common thought, that this is frequently unaddressed, and that this can lead to no good. I know at least two females that agree with this thought; and was wondering
And a post by a female in another thread led to the creation of this thread.

 

Well, I don't feel that way. But you already know that about me. I'm still looked on as being a bitch because I am assertive and believe in myself and in getting what I want. But when a man acts that way, everyone praises him. That is a problem. I could go on and on.

But, I have nothing against men. Gender roles are changing and I think we are all a little confused on who we are supposed to be and how we are supposed to act, or if we are supposed to be anything at all. Women have the advantage in some areas and are very discriminated against in others.

Even in the western world there are a lot of men who think women are incapable of doing things or having their own thoughts. As long as that kind of thinking is out there, there is a place for feminism.

 

Things have changed a lot.

Thanks to feminism, the stay at home mom is now vilified. Though feminism's mission was to prove to the world that many women are more capable than being a stay at home mom, in turn caused the stay-at-home mom to look like a complete inept and incapable retard. I strongly disagree with that perception since I believe stay at home parenting is a very important job. You spend more time raising your kids the right way you want them to. You may not see as many stay at home parents in a down economy for obvious reasons. But you have too many people sobbing over latch-key children. But guess what, by culturally vilifying stay-at-home parenting you CREATE MORE latch-key children!

Further, actions today that are considered sexual harassment today were not considered sexual harassment in the past. Thanks to feminism's crack-down, innocent flirting can be seen as sexual harassment, ESPECIALLY in the workplace.

You see tv shows like the Simpsons where just about all the men are dumb and all the women are 50 IQ points higher.

Feminism was about making the females to equal social levels of the males. But it has taken on a bad direction especially since they still can't figure out how to equalize the glass ceiling of wage differences. Women making 80c per ever dollar a man makes.

As a male, I'd be more supportive of feminism if it didn't create a negative aftermath.


I would agree however, that women are indeed capable of taking on the same career challenges as men. No gender is more or less intelligent than the other. Sexism should not be tolerated either.

 

I, and many many other feminists do NOT think stay-at-home moms are inept or 'retarded' or anything else. I have several feminism friends that are stay at home moms. It is all about being able to choose whether to have a family, or to have a career, or to have both.

 

I feel that most of the original feminist objectives have been largely achieved in the US and most other Western countries. However, we need to remain diligent and not take anything for granted. Young women need to be taught that the rights they enjoy today did not come easy or cheap. And it is always possible for things to go backwards, due to the unstable nature of politics. Hopefully, the next generation will not have to refight many of the same battles.

There is some social resistance to women being viewed on an equal basis with men. Change in that area will continue to be slow. Laws can't change the way people think. We have to keep showing them, over and over, that their prejudices are not accurate.

Out of a sense of compassion, we feminists also need to constantly look for opportunities to help women in countries like Saudi Arabia where they have almost no rights at all. Currently, there is little we can do for them. But we are creating opportunities for girls to get an education in Afghanistan. That's a step.

I play the game a bit differently. I certainly believe in myself, but have learned that the confrontational approach often doesn't get me the results I am looking for. A softer and more subtle style takes more time and effort, but makes fewer waves that can rock the boat too violently. It takes time and effort to learn all the nuances of the subtle way, and men are still ahead of us in this area. They have been playing sophisticated power games for thousands of years.

I agree, and this line was very well written. I think men in the US have been put in a bad spot, especially in the last decade. Society is still trying to put men into a very narrow range of roles that don't fit today's reality very well. Women are given much more latitude. Maybe a men's movement is needed to shatter those old molds and patterns.

I've noticed this too. This was not a problem early in the transition, when mostly liberal women were entering the workforce. I only started seeing it years later, when conservative women started moving up the ladder in large numbers. It is an unfortunate development, and I have no idea what to do about it.

In some companies, even the casual use of profanity by men is viewed as sexual harassment. It's almost at the point where anything that a conservative female doesn't like can be considered harassment, if it comes from a man. I don't like that trend at all, and I didn't see it coming until it was here.

 

Yeah, I am not good at playing power games

I think you made some excellent points Karen, I agree with you that there should be some sort of movement by men to free their constricting gender roles.

 

I've read many books about this issue, and Camille Paglia's thoughts are the most balanced (IMO). She praises both men and women. And she is able to back up her points in a brilliant yet engaging way. Also, her criticisms are aimed at both men and women. She seems to think it's a mistake to bash men, and praise women to the rafters. She cites examples of the many contributions men have made to society. Also, she gives examples of how women achieve greatness on a daily basis. I think of her as an equal opportunity scholar. She's awesome. :sunny:

QP

 

I don't know if it's a liberal vs conservative issue. But stereotypically conservative types can be more anal about things like this.

It's a problem even outside the workforce. But the chances of a sexual harassment case being reported outside the workplace seems to be significantly lower than one coming from within.

And I strongly believe that for these reasons, a lot of males these are intimidated and always think twice about approaching women they may be interested in. Being perceived as a sexual creep is the last thing most men wanna go through (yet then again one can argue that the real male sexual creeps can be to blame for this stigma too, I suppose).

I don't know what to do about this problem either, except for creating more awareness of this issue. And to not allow one's self to get offended so easily.

 

Well, I'm a lazy person, so I have to say I am pissed that woman are also expected to work these days. Fuck you, feminists, I was happy in the kitchen!

 

Absolutely! I'm a fan of Camille Paglia, especially because she attacks gender from a 'sex-positive' angle.

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I'm not a chick, but I have heard people coming from both the:

a) men are brute, creepy, and easily sexually/financially manipulated;

b) women are sluts unless they are superficial, hyper-monogamous, and poorer/shorter/less assertive than "their men"; ends of the spectrum.

They seem like opposite discourses but, to me, they are sides of a coin. Those who say one thing, will say the other; and I hear that same discourse from an equal amount of both women and men. Especially, from gender-loyal women, and "gentlemen."

 

Answering your question, I think that somehow women are already coming out of their so called shell and trying to achieve equality in a way where they already choose to go out of the house and work, do productive activities have a career, and be leaders of the society and not just be restricted to the home or to the usual notion of a woman or the usual gender roles.

However I even though women are already challenging the gender roles, I think that the patriarchal society hasn't been completely destroyed. There are still people, both men and women who believe in the traditional gender roles, both women and men still get discriminated because of their gender.

I think that modern day feminism isn't going to be harmful, given that it is "practiced" in the right way. I think that there are many kind of feminists, there are are some who I think are "anti-men", there are others who simply believe that men and women should be treated equally. In my opinion, I think that I am a feminist in way that I am someone who believes that even though men and women do have their differences, what’s more important is that both are human beings and both deserve equal rights, privileges, restrictions, and just about the same of everything. So if you demand for gender equality, I think it will not really be harmful to gender relations.

 

Excellent post! I agree with your points, especially about there being many different kinds of feminism. I feel that people seem to just group all 'feminists' together and that is not accurate at all.

 

Technology is a big factor

More dependance on technology, less male specific roles, more males leading their working lives in front of a computer

Heading towards a more unisex type society

Further away from the days when men had to kill animals with their bare hands and drag their bitches by the hair into the cave to mate

 

People will always be put into boxes. Some people like generalisations.

 

I really want to say what I think, because we now live in an equal world because of feminism

but i'm afraid of being called a chauvinistic pig, so I wont.

 

Thank you Yes I think people tend to generalize feminists and some people claim to be feminists without even really knowing what it is about which actually damages the word or the thinking feminism.

 

I have always had that trouble here; which is sorta why I made this post.

I wanted to respond to this, but I can see it spurring an endless argument that completely ruins the thread =P

Where do you draw the line between noting gender differences and continuing stereotypes?

For instance, women (and gay men) are way more into the paranormal, and I read somewhere that women make up over 90% of the market for psychics.
Now, if I were to make an assertion from this, that 'women are more superstitious' or 'women are less rational' - would this fit in b -- or is this another horse altogether?

Cause I think I agree with you, but at the same time, I can see where everyone has social stigma..

 

I think the feminist movement has overall acheived its goals. Women can vote, we have rights, its just bias from a few select idiots left now.
I consider myself a feminist still, but maybe perhaps not your typical one. I am very prideful of being a woman.

 

lol I jokingly say that too.
I joked around with my boyfriend once; "hey, let's live like in the 50's; I can stay at home all day while you work and support me!"
lol

 

And I'd say, "Great idea! when I get home from working at my wonderful dream job, you can have dinner ready for me, keep the house clean, clean up after me and my drinking buddies and give me a foot rub while I sit on the couch and read the paper. You an also do my laundry, the dishes, scrub the floor, vacuum, and dust the living room."


And I'm gonna be called a sexist in

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