The dark side of communal life...myth or facts?? and other questions

Growing up as a kid, the only impressions I really had of communes were from well of course 'Jim Jones' and then subsequent other Hollywood productions that always presented such communs with a 'creepy' slant to them...



Charles Mansions crew being amongst the mix...
David Koresh in more modern times...

It seems films made throughout the late 60's or 70's always depicted communes as being social traps for the lost and weary...where people went to get preyed upon by those who knew the craft of manipulation...

Hollywood took this a step further by often depicting the mysterious leader as being some kind of Satanic being of sorts 'leading lost souls to the pit'...(Children of the Corn)



In these movies, the endings were never good, and always usually ended with people being rescued out of them by family members or friends or local concerned citizens...

Again, Hollywood has done a good job at painting this image for many...(not you all here, but to the conservitave mainstream types)...

But we're all effected by the same media to one extent or another...

I guess my question or thoughts are these...

1. What is the aim of a commune?

2. What is the leadership structure (I'm sure this varies)...but I notice when dealing with men or social mammals...without leadership, and clear cut rules, things deteriate.

3. Do communes have like their own constitution? Like a binding reference for all future rules or laws?

4. Do communes attract lazy people who think once they show up, all they gotta do is sleep and smoke weed by a campfire?

5. How are disputes resolved?

6. Are there like communal police? Judges? (members asigned that role)

7. Are communes race nuetral? (I'm sure that varies)

I don't know...I've always wondered these things...cause I know they all can't just be this big gigantic euphoric get aways where people just go to eat free food and have sex...I think that's another Hollywood depiction.

Communes may be formed, but the one thing I know you can't keep out of them is 'human nature', human nature will follow no matter what...and is the most dangerious element...and that's why I suppose strict, but fair rules would always have to be abhered to...

Anyways...just some thoughts and questions...

 

There are no set rules or answers to most of those questions.

Each place that calls itself a commune or ic or cooperative living arrangement or whatever, has their own answers to each.

About the only one that can be answered in such general terms is if they attract lazy people... It definitely gets their attention... It depends on the place itself if it attracts them or not... Some of them even repel those types...

As for using what hollywood portrays as any type of reference to reality... well... That would be more then a little silly...

 

Thanks bud, I've just always wondered these things...and my only reference has really been Hollywood or the news...or like Movies like Airplane, when the pilot is walking through the airport and gets assaulted by over zealiot monks selling cookies or something...

But thanks for your input...

 

Read through the forum... you will find out about many many places... some that started decades ago and are still going, some that started and failed, some that just faded... tons that were only ever ideas that never went anywhere... hell you may even find some that are quite active in the forums...

 

leave charlies ranch alone

 

Some are. You have to be careful not to put yourself in a bad situation.

At least half of all the people I've met in communes have been like this.

In some cases it has been my experience that a small group, maybe half a dozen men & their families end up entirely supporting a group of sixty or more people, either because
1) they couldn't bring themselves to turn anyone away, no matter how lazy, or because,
2) unfortunately, many people who make a lifestyle out of being habitually lazy learn that "craft of manipulation," and gain a following within the community.
Don't be one of those d-bags!

The answer to the rest is, basically, it varies from place to place. Different communities have different goals, values, and backgrounds, e.g. centering around a religion, political or social views, etc. You should make sure you've been in dialogue with any place for a time and understand their background so that both your and their expectations are realistic.

 

Oh? Just where were these communes (note that is plural) that had 65+ people, where 60 were doing nothing...

 

I guess I can answer some of my own questions by asking myself 'If I had a million dollars, to start a commune, how would I run it? What would be the purpose and aim or the place? and would their be rules?

1. Yes, there would be rules...codes of conduct...

2. And there would be roles assigned, tasks...
a. Food preparers
b. Builders, repair experts
c. Income or money earners
d. Teachers...people within the community to teach others various crafts and
survival techniques...
e. Protecters...people assigned, and given authority to help keep the peace, to
help settle disputes, and the authority to resolve them...
d. Councerlors...people assigned to help others make transition or to listen to their
personal needs and concerns...
e. Event organizers...people to organize field trips, and other group activities for adult
And the young alike..

If I had a commune, I would want it to be a place that when you left, you would feel better for it..(Sharper, healthier, and spiritually more clean, than when you arrived)...that you actually learned something meaningful, how to get along, how to co-operate, more self reliant, and better prepared to deal with or survive in society at large.
My model would be like a combination between a Free University and boot camp...

And yes there would be plenty of time for self exploration, time alone, time to think, but I wouldn't want any anti-social types there...and I would want to know a bit about your background...

Wouldn't want an escaped convict having free reign around vunerable trusting souls...
And a 'hobo' or 'homeless drifter'...could not, would not, qualify to be apart of the commune...not unless they came there to totally change their ways...

And there would be a section for those who were there just on vacation...a resort of sorts, within the commune...

But one of my aims would be to see how people developed without being burdened by having to earn a income everyday...

I would want to know would it bring out the better in man, or the worst?
So in the background, it would be kinda like an experiement.

And the question would be 'Would people still be willing to participate in society, work, do tasks, if it was for the greater good of the group, and not just for self gain and or consumption?

Would Johny get up at 6:00 am if he didn't have to? even though others depended on him to in order to provide a b or c...


Ok, that's just one model...I'm sure there's other models...many others...but I feel you always need law and order for anything to work...
Even ants...are assigned roles...ants of all things...



As basic as they are, nature has programed into them roles they must perform within colonies in order for the group to survive and thrive...without those roles, and or the ant's willingness to carry them out, the colony would collapse....

This is intrueging...human behavior that is, under different social stimuli....

 

Hey again ghostchildd...

Scrap all that and try again... This time, plan from a point of view of you NOT winning a million dollars.. lol

The rest, falls under it being whatever you wish to create... but you may want to be careful you don't just re-crate babylon on a smaller scale, or the whole thing is pointless...

 

About food and supply

Also, I suppose if the communes aim is to be self reliant, in as much possible in a money driven society and world, food and supplies would be a large issue...

As such, animals would most definatly have to be apart of every day life...(unless people were totally vegitarian)(but that would be a personal choice).



Chickens for eggs or meat, cows or goats for meat or milk, donkeys for labour? and so on...pigeons for message delivery?

I suppose it would all depend on how off the grid the commune would want to be.

Would we want electricity or not?
Would we want paid county water or not?
Would we want cell phones are not?

Or maybe there could be common areas where all these things were provided, but in induvisual lots or homes, there would be none?

details details...I suppose some would want to be totally nature, like the Amish, others would want a blend...

Bottom line, I would want people to be comfortable and happy and relaxed, regardless of what stage of 'hippie' their in...

Nothing would be forced, rather things or lifestyles would be 'demonstrated', so that others could see the logic or pleasure in it on their own.

I would want the whole experience to be like a medicine...and each day I would want those there to feel better about their decision to come and or participate...

Also medical issues...that's a whole other ball park right there...I guess people would have to provide their own medical insurance and all...for trips to doctor if sick or injured, unless there was a doctor or nurse gracious enough to be apart of group...but even so, medications still cost...

Again, details that would have to be worked out later...
And that's one reason, why as long as the commune is wrapped in the larger society that worships money, there would still have to be income earners within the group...

But other than the assigned income earners...no one within would ever have to think about or exchange money within the land...that burden would be lifted...and people would be free to develop themselves as they see fit...



And a good fresh lake or river would be a plus also...location...
If we had our own lake, could keep it stocked with fish, trout whatever...again that's where income would come into play...

I mean I would never expect to go back to the cave man days of living...no way...
Not all of modern life is bad...but this current system of work till you drop while earning a measly income that barely covers anything, is a form of servitude...an illusion that if you induvisually work hard enough...your dreams will come true...

The people i see busting their butts at near minumum wage just end up getting injured or sick....
That model of fortune died out with the 40's, and 50's....to accumilate wealth now days, you need large gobs of money given to you at once, to further invest...in the form of loans, grants, whatever...

But trying to get there on $8 or 9 or even $15 an hour, in todays society...just won't cut it...and life is cheapened because of it...

I feel people are being robbed of what life really has to offer, in the sense of self growth and exploration in oneself and others, by wasting 1000's of hours earning tokens, to pay this and to pay that, and to still just end up frustrated, alone, and broke...

Capitolism is not God...but it has become that to many...



The persute of this now defines our very existance...and it has changed us...

We are becoming more robotic and programed...money is programing us to worship it...

We are held hostage to it, live in a society that doesn't recognize you, unless you have it...

And there needs to be a way to live, outside of it's grip...or at least full grip....

Anyways...let me stop here...

To be continued....

 

and here I thought you wanted to discuss realities...

Have fun.

 

NC and Upstate NY
Anybody who has actual experience in communes will undoubtedly have encountered this.

 

That's why its dangerous to have one human in control. Humans are fallible that's why you need well defined rules or principles to lead your group and you personally. Tough decisions need be made by group conscious within the principles of the groups mission. Not by one leader or a small group of leaders.

 

Just where are these communes... NC and Upstate NY says nothing... Where are they? Who was there... We're talking at least 130 people from what you said...

Funny thing is that people used to be able to wander around and make all sorts of claims about the places they were and the experience they have...

These days, its a bit harder...

However, just for the sake of argument, lets pretend what you have said is true... Any place that has gather 60 lazy people out of 65 people, is going to fail no matter what goes on there... Regardless of the lazy people... For the simple reason that just like in babylon, those 5 people who were part of it, ALLOWED 60 people to come and sponge off them...

Now, I'll admit I'm not a mathematician... but from actually LIVING in the country, providing more and more of our own needs each day, I can tell you that for a FACT 6 people can not carry 60 for even a week unless those 6 people are off the property making 6+ figure salaries... which would leave nothing but the lazy people on the property to work.

Or of course they were started with such a brilliant idea like, "I just won a million dollars", in that case, it would be able to make it a little while til the money ran out.

 

Chronic, Of the two of us, I'm the only I know has spent several years in actual communes, so my word I'll trust over yours.
This 6-60 situation is realistic, and I have seen it more than once.

Ghostchildd, I think your ideas might be a BIT unrealistic...

 

I like those terms...'group conscious' 'group mission'....I can dig those terms...

I'm kinda behind on my hippie terminology...but all that aside...

I think your absolutely correct....many a good idea has been started, or movements, that were very well intentioned, only to become victim to human nature, power and greed...

That seems to be the biggest trap for all money based or driven communes or communities...

One will exploit many, for personal gain...goes on in churches also...or any organized system, to be fair...

And that's the interesting factor here...would a commune that promised no one person personal gain, still attract the brightest?

Because the one basic question everyone asks of themselves is 'what's in it for me?

For instance...let's say if I were to head off to a misc commune tomorrow...what would I expect to gain from it?

And I'd have to ask myself, could I find what I was looking for without joining a commune?

Could I go live in a tent in the woods, and be just as happy?

And are communes better suited for single people or families?

These are questions I really don't know, cause I've never been in one...

The closest i can think of is being a kid at camp...either boyscout camp or school camp...where money was never an issue...(that's why kids are so happy and free)...

At these camps, money was never an issue...rather getting along with others was. That's what defined your experience, was your ability to get along with others...

And I suppose it would be the same as an adult...

 

Thats sweet... Just who is it that bought the land you plan on doing this on?

A communal thing is the usual answer to this... So you are going to go find say 10 people each with 10k cash? Perhaps you think you will mortgage a property? Nobody is going to hold a mortgage in 10 people's name, so it will have to be in one person's name. That means that one person will be legally responsible for ANYTHING that happens on that property...

That one person, isn't going to be happy if by consensus, the group decides they don't want them there anymore aren't they?

Perhaps your idea is to go squat on some land like so many have suggested? Zero longevity is the result... Any work that is put into it, will be gone the first time you get kicked off...

Maybe you are hoping some kind soul will give you some property for free?

Look at the large communes that are still in existence today after decades... Read through their articles and you will find that the people there, have less freedoms then people in Babylon do...

Look through the forums here... the places that are in existence where they say, come do what you want as long as it works WITH what we are doing, and you know what happens? Few people ever take them up on it...

Why?

Because the majority of people who talk about this stuff, don't actually want to DO it... They want to talk about it.. they want to share their past experiences where although they totally failed, are their examples of what it should be...

People swarm to cults because they don't want to be free individuals... they want someone to tell them what to do, they don't want to have to think and make decisions... Hell, they will even go as far as arguing to give their right to make their own decisions, over to a group of people who have done nothing more then they have...

You want to know what the benefits of not having anyone in charge, and instead having a group of indivuduals who work together, without provisions for them to gang up and take away someones work and effort that they put in due to personal issues?

You dont have to put up with the antics of children who think they know more then the people who actual built what is making survival for them possible...

You don't have to worry that the group is going to decide they don't like you.

You don't have to worry that part of the group may not carry their weight and have everyone lose their home because of it.

Personally, if instead of putting the effort out to start out on my own, I had decided to join with an already formed group, I would have looked for the ones where the people who are there, have already shown that they know what they are doing and are inviting others to come and see if they like it there or not...

This idea of having a whole bunch of people who have little or no experience even living in the country banding together to build something is a lot like the idea of two virgin's fucking...

 

Wow...

How about you share some of these experiences with us then?

My experience is open to all to see and read (well, to those who haven't been banned by a supermod from doing so anyway)...

Where is yours?

 

Am I thinking way way to big?
Like on a grand scale?

Should I down size?
Like 10-20 people...is that more realistic? I don't know...

And how much land is needed to sustain such a community?

And also, are there urban communes?
Can a commune type structure exist within a city or large town?

Can a commune exist while still using or utilizing modern conviences?
Where the vast majority still live together, pooling resorces, so that money or the persuit of money is not their only reason to exist??

I suppose there's all sorts of models out there...

Intrueging it is...

(I just read your post to chronic tom #17)

 

The thing is that nobody wants to read your diary, Chronic.
Interrogating people about their credentials because you don't like them should probably have its own forum. It definitely has nothing to do with THIS topic.

Since you bring it up, though, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how any venture you've undertaken in communal living has failed. Your attitude is very unpleasant.