Hurt/offended by the Church/Christians?

Still, its a numbers game in the end.

We are only ever going to be around 2%, thats never going to change.

An organized religion fussing about how they tolerate such a small minority, when they have bigger things to worry about; orphans, the homeless, women that are the victims of domestic violence, single mums that have to struggle with a whole bunch of kids etc

A gay teen thats kicked out of home and reaches for assistance is more likely to be picked up by a religous based charity organization than any other. Why arent we looking after our own?

We could learn a thing or two about community and charity from even the nuttiest of christian fundamentalists.

As for hate, I find it a hypocritical argument, theres no use hanging on to the hate you might feel for some fundamentalists, they are a minority too. In the end the majority are going to be on your side anyway, even if they dont really like you, they hate churchy types trying to tell everyone what they should do more.

And I see the same kind of blind faith, convictions of belief and resistance to outsiders in our community as I see in theirs

 

I chose that name, because I feel like the real me is invisible to the outside world. And because in the society which I live, its impossible for me to live the kind of life that I want to live. So in many ways, I feel like I dont exist. You made a very sweet statement out of that username though, and it makes me feel humble, thank you.

As for the OP, I think it would be a great thing if all religious people (religious people who believe that gay people are committing "sin" by being gay, anyway) could live in harmony with gay people, regardless of the differences of opinion. Accepting people's differences, if not agreeing with them, I think is the key to more harmony in the world. We are not living in a utopia, not now or ever, (as awesome as that would be) but being able to agree to disagree in a peaceful and accepting manner, should not be beyond anyone. Unless someone is causing mental or physical harm to others, then Id have no quarrel with them, regardless of if they held opinions or beliefs that I didnt personally agree with.

If we can't all share the same views, the least we can do is accept everyone's differences regardless of whether we like them or not. If everyone could do that, the world would be a far nicer, and more harmonious place to live.

 

I agree in the sense that all people are capable to be good and loving. But couldn't it be said that some people need some guidance to be good? And more so than being "good" as in the status quo of what's expected of people, maybe some folks search for inspiration to go beyond just being nice to people and want to be loving. I think the idea of being good as in "not being a bad person" is often confused with being "loving." I may not scream at a homeless guy in SF "Go get a job!" (ie, not a bad person - therefore status quo "good") but how often do I take the time to sit and talk to one, buy them a meal, help them through a day. For something i want to do often, I can count the number of times on one hand.

For the sake of argument, lets assume for a second that "no special book is required" to learn about love (As on some levels, I disagree with this statement). Wouldn't it at least be possible that a book, a story, a movie, something, could teach us more about love than we naturally know on our own.

There's a great story about a guy who left his comfort to travel to a place full of craziness. He had great relationships with those he was with and then things got worse. He sacrificed himself not only for people he loved, but for people who didn't even know him, and some that didn't even know what he did. It was amazing when Bruce Willis sacrificed himself in Armaggedon. =o) The movie was fantastic because there were so many examples of love and sacrifice.

Who didn't learn something about passion from Romeo and Juliet? Having a passion that class and prejudice could not prevent?

Cultural books, movies, stories, folklore, etc, teach people values. The bible, if not considered a holy book, could at the very least do the same.

So maybe if you believe no special book is "required" to learn about love and goodness, is it at least possible that a book that is very special to many people has helped generations to learn about love and goodness, or maybe even be inspired to be "more good" or more loving than they naturally were?

 

@Timmr: No, I dont agree with any of that. Ive been surrounded by nothing but narrow mindedness, ignorance, disdain, and hatred for most of my life. Even all those who were supposed to love me, shunned me, and treated me like a leper. And yet, I turned out as a very caring, loving person. You should not need guidance to be good. In fact, all the "guidance" and influence Ive had, should have turned me the other way.

I especially disagree that a book can make someone "more good", than they naturally were. All of my morals and values come merely from my heart, and nowhere else. As for the bible, I think that book has probably inspired far more hatred, violence, and prejudice than it has ever inspired love. Values, to a certain extent, can be taught. And perhaps books, movies and other things can play a role in that. But ultimately, I think true goodness and love comes purely from the heart. And someone shouldnt think that just because they have read a certain book, that they are somehow more good and more morally sound than someone who has not read that book.

 

Invisible Soul- I'm so sorry to hear that. Thank you for replying honestly. It is very appreciated. I guess we have very opposite experiences on this end. I know that whatever I say here can never change the hurt that you've felt, but to the people who shunned you and treated you like a leper, from a pastoral standpoint and from a biblical standpoint, they did not do what their faith said they should. Interesting that you used the term leper - that's actually one of the points I'm using tomorrow.

Lepers were kicked out of society and made to live alone so that they wouldn't contaminate others. The Jewish culture of the day was to remain "ceremonially clean." Coming in contact with a leper would cause someone to be considered unclean. There is a story of Jesus healing a leper. Not only did he speak to the leper, but he touched him to heal him. While the religious rule of the day shunned the one that was difference, Jesus met him and did exactly what the people of his culture and faith feared to do. This is an important theme of what I'm talking about tomorrow with this church. As GLBT feel shunned by the church, our role as follower's of Christ is not to follow the prevailing culture as it is, but it is to reach out to everyone in love.

I very much feel like what I've learned from the bible has helped me grow incredibly in my capacity to love. On my wedding day, very specific scripture came to mind when I bumped into the guy that tried to break up my wedding, told my fiance to not marry me and then when he called to talk to me about it he said it was "no big deal." My everyday culture told me that I was justified in my anger, maybe a "good person" would be strong enough to not be angry but just to ignore that person... but I think that God spoke to me and had me walk up to him, smile and say (and genuinely mean) "Hey. I'm really glad you came to our wedding today. It means a lot to us that you're here." Without the God's word coming to me, I don't know what I would've done, but it definitely wouldn't have been that.

"And someone shouldnt think that just because they have read a certain book, that they are somehow more good and more morally sound than someone who has not read that book." - I don't think that I said this at all, but I'm sorry if you think that I implied this in my last post. I was referring to the fact that the bible could make a person "more good" or "more loving" than they themselves would naturally have been without reading. I did not mean to imply that they would be "more good" or "more loving" than other people. I very much believe that the bible did this for me. It is my experience and I hope people see value in that as much as I see that others have misused the bible to hurt you. For that, for them, and for their hatred, I apologize.

 

No, none of my family were christians. (although for some bizarre reason, I was sent to a catholic school. Which was also a horrendous experience) At least not that Im aware of. But your family are supposed to, more than anyone else, look out for you and take care of you. But instead, I was shunned because I "wasnt normal". I used the term "leper", because thats how Ive been made to feel. Not just by family and people I grew up with. But also from observing general society, and how most people view someone like me. I feel like Ive been banished from society, and even humanity, just because of something I had no control over, and would never have wanted. But definitely being shunned by family especially, left me very disillusioned with humankind in general. Seeing how the rest of the world is, just supplanted that disillusionment further.

That is basically why I used the word leper, because I feel like Ive been kicked out of society. Although Im not part of the GLBT, I feel a lot of affinity with a lot of people in that category, because the way Ive been treated by society, and the hardships Ive endured are very similar to what many in that group have to go through. I think it is great that you have that attitude, and if only more Christians were the same way, it would go a long to way to making humans regardless of their differences, to be able to live in peace and harmony. The ironic thing is, many "christians" actually do not follow the teachings of Christ, which makes them not christians in my opinion.

I think it is great that is the case, but certainly, you do not need scripture to do what you did. Well, certainly not every person would need it. I think anything that can be used to inspire more loving attitudes in people is definitely a good thing, but its not something that's necessary to have attitudes like "love thy enemy" and "turn the other cheek". I think values like these can be held by anybody. Ive actually had a few people saying to me they are amazed I can be the way I am, when Ive been treated so badly by so many people. But if someone feels they need scripture or faith to be able to be that way, then its all to the good, and I certainly wouldnt object to that.

I didnt say that you specifically said that, but certainly a lot of people of faith believe that because they believe in a god, and take their values from certain scriptures, it makes them better people, than people who do not believe in their god, and for whom scripture has played no part in their values or moral system. For certain people, it could make a person more good and more loving, but that is most certainly not an absolute for all people. Which I did state with different wording in my last post. Nobody, as far as I know, has used the bible to hurt me. At least not directly. But certainly, I think prejudicial attitudes towards someone like me from general society is certainly fuelled to some extent, by religious fundamentalism. Directly or indirectly. And you dont need to apologise for anything, you've done nothing wrong.

 

invisible soul - you're awesome. Great post. The phrase "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" pops into mind when I hear your story. You've come out from some terrible experiences and are able to see it objectively and learn from it. Thats fantastic. Many people have gone through tough times and come out so much more hurt, jaded, and angry at the world. And shoot! You've already posted your background here and I knew it - sorry for continually assuming that everyone on here is GLBT (and sorry for apologizing!).

I guess a little extra background on me - I did come from a great and loving family. I'm asian american, so my family experience is actually quite different from the stereotypical. My parents were supportive, warm and caring (stereotypical asian parents are driven, cold, and success oriented - at least, thats how they "show their love"). But we didn't grow up in the church. My brother started dating a pastor's daughter in high school, and I started attending in middle school. It was the two of us that started bringing our parents to church (at least back to church - they had attended when they were younger).

With all of that, being a young Christian in high school, I tried to stay above the influences, but hung out with some gang bangers - been to a brawl or two. I've done martial arts my whole life (OKAY, that is stereotypical asian) and actually used to have some anger issues. So what happened on my wedding day, not just the fact that I didn't punch the guy, break a knee cap, or something extreme, but the fact that I felt a complete release of tension and anger to my core, to me was something beyond myself. In the past, I've been able to not do something crazy, but I would shake from rage- from my hands to my spine. I had that feeling all night, staying up until 3 am with my old college buddies (groomsmen) talking about what I wish I could do when I saw him. When I saw him, man... it felt like... peace.

And yes, many Christians do not follow the teachings of Christ. The hardest part is that so many people depend on others for their faith that if one is misled away from the true teachings, many will follow. I wouldn't necessarily call not "not Christians" as our faith is determine by our faith in Christ which should lead to following his teachings - but sadly for many it doesn't. For those that feel morally, culturally, or spiritually superior, all I can say is that is just evidence for their lack of Christ-like-ness. The Bible tells us that only God is worthy of being lifted up and everything that Christ talked about, especially as he talked to his disciples, whom one would assume to be the spiritual leaders, is that humility, love, and servanthood to all people is what we were called to do. Paul calling himself the greatest sinner of all, Christ washing the feet of his disciples right before he predicts the betrayal and Peter's denial, and ultimately "while we were considered God's enemies, Christ died for us," as not just "loving" your enemies in feeling, but actively doing everything you can to help those that are in need, regardless of who they are, are examples of the attitude and actions Christians should have.

As always, thank you for your thoughtful and honest/transparent/open responses.

 

Timmr, ol boy, we're here for you as much as you're here for us. This sort of feels like the sharing that I have with many friends in my life around here...we're vastly different people with a mutual respect for each other and an appreciation that our differences make us valuable to each other.

In the jungles there is a sweet closeness of people due to the realized need on our fellow man...while one person keeps an eye on the dangers lurking near the trail another watches the trees to see what threat is there. That way we both arrive safely. That is a relationship I value greatly. I trust you to watch out for me on some issues while you rely on me to protect you on others. Thats how it feels with you coming here to touch base and listen and also share what works for you. I feel no threat from you, I feel your respect. Thank you.

 

Thank you, the compliment is very much appreciated.

Oh I am hurt, jaded, and certainly quite bitter over what happened to me, and the negative impact its still having on my life. I guess I was just strong enough to prevent all that from turning me into a person I hated. As I know many people who have suffered abuse eventually become like the people who abused them. I guess its comes down to defiance really. I was defiant as a child and young person, that I wasnt going to allow people to change me into a person I wasnt. And that defiance has continued though my adult life. I have certainly seen far more wickedness and bad things in the world than Ive seen good, but Ive never allowed that to change my core personality. I think it wouldn't be natural if it hadnt effected me in a negative way, but it only did to the extent that it made me disillusioned with humanity. Ive never allowed my basic goodness and caring nature to be beaten out of me, when it quite easily could have been. I more feel pity than hate for the people who have (and would) treated me badly because of my background and my condition. I see that as more a flaw in their characters than it has to do with my physical flaws.

As for assuming Im GLBT, thats quite okay. lol Some people who arent gay/transgender post here, although most are. I guess because a lot of my problems and issues are very similar to LGBT people's, it gives out the impression that I am that. I just noticed you said "sorry for apologising", haha! There's no need to be, although you needn't have apologised in the first place.

As for the rest of your post, there is much truth in it, and thank you for sharing your thoughts on the issue.

 

Another update - The message went well at the other church. Thanks for all the responses again. After that weekend, I did some facebook stalking (the fun kind, not overly intense and scary kind) and I saw some encouraging comments. One that said "convicting message today" that was commented on by another church member "Yes, but will we really be able to live it?" Change may not come fast, but hopefully the Spirit of love is moving.

After that weekend, I also had the opportunity to give some seminars at a regional youth camp with students from all over the west coast. I gave a similar message - this time the focus was not on the perception of the anti-homosexuality in the church, but that was a major point in the seminar. The students at this camp were very receptive.

I think that the younger generation, whether its due to media, or maybe even just time and culture, seem much more open to loving all types of people.

Again thank you everyone! Special thanks to Yarapario and Invisible Soul. Your last few posts came to me the morning that I spoke and it was very affirming and encouraging to read right before I spoke. Thanks for hanging in through all of this.

As always, if anyone else has any thoughts, I'm always open to hearing them. If I don't hear anything, if there are any updates on my end, I will try to navigate my way back to update.

Thanks and God bless. =o)

 

I have spent considerable amounts of time pondering christ, christianity, the bible and also other religions and mythologies.

All I can really say to you is read the bible.
It was through reading the bible that I began to see how horrible it was.

A loving God cannot also be a punishing God.

And also God doesn't appear to be real either. It doesn't register on any of the senses unless you count the imagination as a sense (which even then is not a given)

And what do you think of matthew 15:22-28.
If Christ can cure this womans suffering instantly, why doesn't he simply do so, instead of relying on such arbitrarity to occur first.

it doesn't make any sense <- that's really the whole crux of it. =)

On the topic of gays. what can I say.
If you believe that the bible is inerrant, unabridged, correctly translated, divinely inspired word of God, than really you should be destroying, or atleast avoiding us gays.

I don't know though because the bible doesn't really make any sense whatsoever.

 

I've been in a few organized religions, primarily Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism. But since this topic is focusing on the former (Christianity), I'll just focus on my experiences with that.

When I was a bit younger, I did want to be a part of the church and do things for it -- I went to a Catholic school, went to Sunday school and to regular ceremonies with the family. But one thing I couldn't understand about being a part of the religion, was that no one ever wanted to answer questions about it -- if I would, say, question something that was written in the Bible, I would be scolded. For some reason, I forgave that, but as time went on and I started to realize that I was gay, it got a bit harder.

The students I went to school with, for instance, were all vehemently against the idea of two males in a relationship, or two girls in a relationship. A lot of them did cite the Bible and used that aspect of the religion to constantly condemn it, to constantly make fun of it and to just be cruel about it. Of course, I was not out (and still am not), but there were a few other students who were and they weren't treated well by their peers.

Some of the teachers were somewhat tolerant, but there were others who would talk about LGBT issues with disdain. They would mention that all LGBT's are going to go to Hell, and that there's no place for any of us in this world. I can't say I hated myself for being what they hated, because at that point, I really started to doubt that I even held any stock in the opinions of these teachers and students. I was never singled out as gay, because no one knew, but others were, so most of what I'm saying comes from witnessing what happened to them.

When it comes to Christianity and homosexuality, I see that a lot of Christians consider the Bible to be infallible, to be perfect, to be completely true in every way. But humans aren't perfect -- they recognize this -- and humans are who wrote the Bible, or at least, translated the book, and since there's the belief that humans can't actually do anything -perfect- then, the Bible wouldn't be perfect. But since people do believe the book to be the perfect representation of everything, they take it literally and it does cause misery for others. (Since this is about homosexuality and Christianity, I'll just keep the side from the homosexual side and not branch into much else).

One personal instance, was when I chose to come out to one friend (I consider myself still closeted, as I'm only out to four current friends, and one ex-friend), this friend was a very... I'll say "devout" Christian. The things this friend said to me afterwards, such as "You're a sick abomination only fit to burn" and other, more colorful phrases I don't want to type out, hurt me personally quite a lot. I always know the saying "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me" but that saying isn't true as far as I go, my large insecurities and low self-esteem being the main reason why words tend to affect me heavily.

I know that was probably a lot, I'm not the greatest with keeping things short and sweet, but that's how religion has affected me as far as my homosexuality is concerned.

In summary, basically, I found being in a Christian environment incredibly hard due to all the disdain towards, simply, what gender people can be attracted to -- and being gay, I never felt like I could tell anyone even if I wanted to. In coming out in that environment (even to school counselors), I would've run the risk of losing friends, becoming a target (from students, kids in the community, to even adults), being barred from church activities, possibly even expelled from the school (Out of three open gay students, they all left, one by choice and the others were said to have been expelled -- I don't know for sure), and I don't really know how my (at that time) extremely Christian father would've responded to that. And even when I did come out to a good friend, who happened to be Christian, I was rejected by him and insulted by him and I fell into a bit of a depression after that.

 

'If a man occupies a position of authority for which he is by nature really inadequate, extraordinary Prudence is necessary'...The I Ching (Hexagram 62reponderance of the Small

Prudence is defined as :the ability to govern and discipline oneself by the use of reason.

And lastly..."What you believe is not who you are, whether you believe me or not." RiderOnTheStorm2.0

 

Hey timmr..Question: What if there isn't a God?

 

Hey Blueroad

Thanks for joining the conversation. Not sure where you are headed with your question or if you are just curious. I'll give a short response, and I don't mean to be rude, but the question doesn't exactly fit the purpose of the forum. I do not want the conversation to stray.

What is there isn't a God? If all life is by chance and we'd all been living the bible for "nothing"? Then I am at no loss. I lived a life that I loved and in loving a God that "didn't exist" I was inspired to serve people in a way that I don't think I would have otherwise. Donating time, money, and energy to work in Tsunami devastated areas in Thailand and working in innercity Oakland and Portland. With no God, it doesn't matter who I followed or what I did on earth, but either way, I live my life satisfied in the work that I felt God called me to do.

Your question begs the alternate question? "What if there is a God?" Then I served him whole heartedly and know that when I stand before him I can tell him that I had faith in Jesus and I hope that he would response, "Well done, good and faithful servant." =o)

Thanks for joining in. Pleasure to electronically meet you.

 

I feel so sad that the only time my friend or love at one point brings up bible quotes is when he felt sexually akward in the middle of our "sinful business". I grew up as a native and had a basic belief in simple respect of everything or just have a more "natural" view of things. So I'm basically agnostic I couldn't ever help my urges so I just thought of them as a natural thing. Still I have a realistic and bitter view of people's prejudices so I don't go about flaunting my gayness.