the great question

You're not too familiar with the messianic prophesies, huh..I'm not going into what jesus said because quite frankly it's irrelevant, we both agree that the prophesies were made BEFORE jesus, were we not?

The prophesy of the MESSIAH is that the MESSIAH would commit certain acts, if ALL of the ACTS were committed by the MESSIAH (or the messiah physically at the head of an army), then the MESSIANIC PROPHESIES would be fulfilled. Should these acts all be committed BY OTHER PEOPLE throughout history, there clearly isn't a MESSIAH, because THE ACTS must be committed BY THE MESSIAH, in order for the MESSIAH to be a MESSIAH. This is why I regard JESUS as a PROPHET, because JESUS did NOT commit the ACTS NECESSARY to be the MESSIAH. Should I capitalise the rest or are you picking up on the important bits of what I've said? Sheesh.

Furthermore, the christian bible doesn't actually legitimately predict anything about the messiah, as I've already said- the old testament is the first 5 books of the torah, which say nothing about a messiah at all, and the new testament was compiled in 60AD, then rewritten from memory circa 300-400AD after the great fire destroyed the only copies of the bible..something written 60 years after the fact, picking out what information it deems important, is likely to be a good prediction of the past. I can predict the past too:

I can also say something will happen and not say when, so whenever it happens can be considered a fulfilment of my prophesy, as jesus did. I'm sure we all can, you can try if you want, maybe you'll get in a book in the future

Anyway, Blackguard? (I cant remember who said it!) Get away. I was here first and I am the true prophet. I prophesise that a tree will fall on the house you live in, if not now, in the near future, or some time before then, or some time after then, whether there is a house there or not, and you don't have to be there at the time, but that's my prophesy and it will prove I'm the real prophet and my religion is right (Heathen)

 

damn, there are trees not 30 feet from me right now, creepy.....


I have always pondered the idea that even if the events in His life after he was able to read were already written, whats to stop him from reading them, and then methodically fulfilling them?

I too, have 20/20 hindsight.

By heathen I assume you mean the traditional definition, country bumpkin.
thanks.

 

people expected a warrior messiah because king david was like that. messiah does not mean son of god or does not refer to someone of godly status. and jesus wasn't only a messiah before you start saying he was just a man.


and actually the old testament is full of quotations of how the lamb of god is to suffer and ignored by his own people.

 

No silly, not of my religion! That's what heathen means. I woulda said gentile (nonjew) but I have my own religion now so I guess I'm a gentile too.

I'm just gonna post the links to things people don't understand now, I'm really weirded out by the lack of knowledge in some people. Did that sound rude? sorry.. http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm read that. Silly people. Its from a jewish site because it looks at it in terms of what's in the old testament (the jewish bible) and how the prophesies came about and what they actually are and mean, and the initial meaning of messiah.

 

i tihnk gentil jsut means some1 who is not jewish,so if ure not jewish(not religion but culture)
then i guess in the bibles times we are gentiles

 

Think about it. Religions look for the essence behind things. What is the defining moment of a flood, the greatest flood there could ever be? A flood of the whole world. It's a symbolic exaggeration. Just like there is the perfectly Strong Man, the perfectly Beautiful Woman, the prototype Dog, Bird, Horse (these are often depicted as gods), etc, and now, the perfect Flood. I don't find it surprising at all.

Anyways, what makes your story so compelling? The Native Americans (some of them anyways) believe the world started as all water, then a turtle came up with mud on his back and the beaver made that into what is now the dry land we live on. Its a cultural myth, not science. Why can't you grasp that?

And no, your frequent posting about these 'prophesies' are not going to slowly make me believe, I'm not that malleable and stupid, as if by just hearing a thing so often it will make me believe it. No, it's just annoying, sorry.

 

They point in different directions just as the spokes of a wheel point a different angle towards the central hub. they only seem to point in different directions if your stuck on one spoke. Looking at the whole, they all clearly point to the same place.

 

but spokes on a wheel point all pont outwards,not to th same point,it depends on the persons perspective

 

You're looking at it backwards, lol. Religions are meant to lead in to the point of balance and peace, but sadly, they often lead out, to where balance and tranquility are replaced by lots of action and turbulence but no peace.
http://www.bluehoney.org/Whichone.htm

 

religions cause war and constrainntment,but a relationship with the living god gives peace wqith much abundance,love,satisfaction,joy,happiness,strength,purpose,and much more.

 

and by what way of thinking do you label them all as the same?

 

That tidal wave would have had to of lasted for days, because the bible said they walked across on dry ground. And it says the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left hand. I never saw a tidal wave like that before. Also the bible said that a pilliar of fire kept the Egyptian army from the children of Israel until they coud get far enought across. Any ideas where the pillar of fire came from? And according to the bible, God knocked off the wheels of the Egyptian's chariots. Seems to me there was a little more going on here than just a natural disaster.

 

Well I'm not God, just a simple man, no more no less. And you could say the same about me believeing a lie. But that would mean you are saying the bible is a lie. Because what I believe is found in the bible. The bibles path is right for everyone, and outside of it, the only other path will lead to destruction.

 

BlackGuard could you give a little more detail than your, and they call Paul a liar statement. Copies of the Old Testament are in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The prophecies read the same as our bibles today. It appears you don't agree with that statement.

 

They do call paul a liar..well not necessarily a liar but a bit of a dick.. didn't all the apostles turn on him? He started up the christian church by denouncing the jewish/essene way of life, he said that everything had changed now that jesus had come and gone.. most people disagreed with this.

Further, the dead sea scrolls describe the essene way of life and its rules, jesus being an essene. If you believe jesus is the messiah and form a church around that belief of course your bible will match up with the dead sea scrolls. Except, of course, the eating/living rules. They clearly don't matter. Speech and lashon ha-ra do still matter, but that's because jesus made it up, didn't he?

Campbell could you at least respond to my post before? seeing you responded to everyone elses. I'm not expecting you to concede I'm correct, I was expecting you to ignore it, but it's not exactly courteous.

 

It should be obvious, that the same Messiah will do both things, but in two different time periods. The prophecies of the bible appear wrong to you, only because you mistakenly believe everything must happen at one time, which is not the case. The prophecies of the Old And New Testaments are being fullfilled to the letter as we speak. You really have to close you eyes not to see what God is doing today. The Jews are not back in Israel by accident, and they are part of Gods bigger plan. The Old Testament is not made up of 5 books, but 39 books. And it is in those 39 books that you will find the prophecies of Jesus. Also the Dead Sea Scrolls which were untouched for over 2,000 years has the same prophecies. The prophecise are very detailed, and historical. The east gate prophecy is in the Old Testament, but the fullfillment of the prophecy did not start untill the second gate was sealed. And like the bible said, all attempts to open the gate will fail. The Moslems have tried twice and they could not open it. The bible says don't worry the prophecy will not fail. And it will be Jesus alone, who will walk through the gate, when He walks to the temple mount to set up His kingdom. Everyone who was ever born will bow down to Jesus Christ. For He is more than a prophet, He is the God who made all things. John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

 

I'll just repeat myself, huh..

other than the messiah needing to be a man, not a deity or any form of higher being, the messiah and the messiah ALONE must complete many acts before being declared the messiah. I'm getting tired of this. Jesus was not the cause of the jews returning to jerusalem. Whatever is happening in the present is irrelevant to the case of jesus being the messiah because should jesus be the messiah he would be committing these acts himself, rather than 'working in mysterious ways', or by g-d doing it for him. I'm not being blind to current or previous events, I'm looking at it in terms of the prophesy, and you are clearly not familiar with the original prophesy, and your ignorance of the messianic prophesy and further refusal to learn, show me that you are just not worth my time or my patience. I don't have an issue with what people believe, I have an issue with people refusing to learn or even consider other factors, I was not doing this to challenge anyones faith but to bliddy help you look at things in a factual light, however the bright lights must have destroyed your retinas. Look it up. Don't go onto any website trying to prove anything, go to one which looks at prophesies etc objectively. But you're really not listening.

 

What matches up is Jesus fullfilled the prophecies that were were written down before He was born. Which is pretty hard to do, unless you have an advanced knoweledge. Especially when there were over 300 hundred of them.
His birth in Bethlehem was a fulfillment of Mi. 5:2. His families flight to Egypt fulfilled Ho. 11.1 His rejection by the Jews fulfilled Is. 53:3 His triumphal entry fulfilled Zec. 9:9 His betraial by a friend fulfilled Ps. 41:9 Him being sold out for 30 pieces of silver fulfilled Zec. 11:12 He was crucified with sinners fullfilled Is. 53:12 His hands and feet pierced fulfilled Ps. 22:16 ect.

 

I am not even going to go into this with you campbell. The passages you give give no clear indication that ANY prophecy was fullfilled. The New Testament says Jesus was crucified with stakes in his hands and feet and then ANY place in the bible where it says 'periced hands and feet' it MUST Be a prophecy, regardless of who wrote it, wether is was meant to be a prophecy or even though nothing else in the passage or chapter has anything to do with the subject matter. It says peirced, it MUST be a prophecy that came true!!!!! Sure....

Now combine that with the fact that Rome systimatically destroyed all original versions of the old testaments documents, and then practiced a lot of creative editing and you really do have nothign to base a case on. How could you ever claim that you have a book which prophecied an event, and then tell everyone you published the book a couple hundred years after the event happened.

I have a great I dea to publish a book which will fortell the US Revolutionary War. I'll bet you I can guess who wins... and I bet I can get more than 300 fullfilled prophecies fit in.

 

I have no idea where you get the idea that the Romans destroyed all versions of the Old Testament. Even if they destroyed some of them. The fact is the Dead Sea Scrolls which were found in 1948 was not destroyed, and is the same translation as the Old Testament today so your argument does not hold water. And of coarse you won't go into this with me, because your like so many on this post make these broad statements with no facts backing you up. And of the three hundred prophecies, there is only one man in history who could claim to of fullfilled every one of them. And that is the way the prophecies are written. And if they are not prophecies then they are just jiberish. But I know enought about the bible to know that this is not the case.
Got any ideas why they can't smash through the east gate to break the prophecy? And do you think the Jews retaking south Israel first and Jerusalem second as the bible stated and the fact that the Jews returned at all was just by chance. And do you think the fact that they recovered the Holy Annointing Oil which was the only oil of that kind on earth was found just by chance. Fact is as you look at all these verses you claim are not prophecies, yet every one of them Jesus fulfilled. The bible also states that in the end people would rather believe a lie rather than the truth.