Trying to understand how the market/distribution system stays alive

I'm trying to figure out how the market/distribution system for acid stays alive, i.e., why law enforcement is not able to shut it down.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a prohibitionist. Acid should be legal, it has helped a lot of people, would be useful in psychotherapy, etc.

Trying to understand how acid is still available despite law enforcement efforts to shut it down, may I present a set of propositions and logical implications of those propositions? These propositions lead to the conclusion that law enforcement is able to shut down the existence of any meaningful amount of acid distribution/availability. Obviously, somewhere this logic is flawed, and maybe in more than one place. Can anyone give insight into this?

-We assume there are a relatively small number of labs producing acid (maybe 100 or so worldwide)?
-The producers know the distributors they sell to
-There is a chain of people involved in distribution, all of whom know the person one level up and the people one level down that they sell to. (Occasional exceptions at the very end-user level, where someone buys from a stranger at a trance, dead/phish show, etc.)
-When an individual anywhere along this chain is busted, they are offered the opportunity to get out of trouble by ratting out the person one level above them.
-Many individuals will avail themselves of this opportunity. As the potential penalties increase (higher amounts), the temptation to avail oneself of this opportunity increases.

So why is law enforcement not able to find dealers who have acid (just the same way that an ordinary person interested in taking the acid might find one), get them to snitch, then get the person the next level up, get them to snitch, and so on, until the lab is shut down?

Where does this logic fail? How does the system stay operating?

A few theories -

-End-users arent offered the chance to snitch and/or they are afraid of getting shot if they do

-Middle-level distributors arent offered the chance to snitch and/or they are afraid of getting shot if they do

-There are people in the distribution system who have ways of selling anonymously (???) such that their buyers can not find them or snitch on them if they wanted to

-Law enforcement does not do a significant amount of end-level user type busts, ie. seek out the final "street-level" or "club-level" retail sellers and bust them.

-Social networks are involved in distribution that are hard to penetrate. However, once they are penetrated, why can't they bust people all the way up the chain?

-This type of shutdown does happen, but the rate at which this happens is slower than the rate of new distribution networks being set up

It is not my desire that this happen. On the contrary. But I am trying to understand why it doesn't happen. What keeps the market alive?


For example, see the following statement from the DEA's website in the US:

"Most LSD available in the United States is produced in northern California and the Pacific Northwest by a relatively small network of experienced chemists; however, independent dealers throughout the country produce the drug in limited quantities. "

So.... if they know there's a small network of chemists in northern California and the Pacific Northwest (how do they know this?), why can't they find them? Presumably some informants have told them that the chemists are in N. California. Such informants are likely being prosecuted for involvement in distribution. So if they are being prosecuted and know where the chemists are, do they say only "They're in Northern California, but I won't tell you who/where exactly"? How does the production and distribution network stay intact?

 

Hello officer, what a nice thread you have!

 

Mr Writer maybe you should send him the secret code and handshake.

 

Huh?

I'm just asking for theories as to how the conflict between drug distribution and attempts at suppression plays out and how the system fails to suppress it.

I have to laugh at your suspicion. Do you really think a thread like this would be useful for law enforcement? I'm sure plenty of people have examined this question before in academic papers, law enforcement symposia, etc.

Anyway, anyone who isn't paranoid and has insight into this issue, I'm curious to understand it better.

 

I can see this thread is going nowhere fast.

Anyway, as far as counting my blessings are concerned, I haven't done it in over 20 years and I dont lead the kind of lifestyle these days that would bring me into contact with it. So while you may be counting your lucky stars, not everyone is as fortunate.

Anyway, if everyone is equally suspicious/paranoid as you two, just forget it.

 

snorkleberry I can only suspect LSD is low on the "war on drugs" totem pole compared to meth, coke, herion and other destructive drugs. It's non addictive, can't od on it, etc so it's not an in your face problem. I could be wrong but it is not a big industry with a cartel behind it. Other than the occassional bad trip at the ER really there is no damage it causes.

 

I don't actually think you're law enforcement, but I do think this website is a good source for law enforcement intelligence, and this sort of thread, were I to be a DEA agent reading this website, would be phenomenal. I would be checking in this thread every 5 minutes. It's relevance to law enforcement is very high. You are directly asking about criminal networks of LSD distribution. Really man? What kinds of answers are you expecting? Here is one fact I'm surprised you aren't aware of: most people don't snitch, so busting some guy at a phish concert with 5 hits isn't going to net you the chemist in california, or wherever. Busting 100 people with lsd probably isn't going to net you anyone, at best some low level re-re-re-reseller.

 

ha
I didn't recognize leary there for a moment with his head on.

 

It's no different than all the other things that become popular enough to be criminalized. There are always people that want it, and someone to find a way to make a buck providing it. The various activities and substances have different histories and cultures, but in the end they are much alike. Why not ask "why haven't they stopped prostitution?" Same.

For sure they have. Just not on internet forums like this one. Hence, the comment.

It is an interesting subject to try to understand, but maybe as posted above some people are simply glad that they can still manage to engage in pursuits that are (for the most part for responsible individuals) harmless to others and often provide benefits like better awareness, personal growth, fun and recreation, etc.
I remember reading something in the constitution about pursuit of happiness. There'd be alot less discontent in some places if we got back to a libertarian approach to society.

 

While I dont share in the paranoia, I have to agree its quite an interesting question/post for your first 'contribution' to the forums, why dont you hang around a bit, read through past threads and see if you can form your own opinion in regards to the question asked?

You have to realize LSD is illegal and your question given the context (again, you have no other posts) seems sketchy. I agree with you, nothing that would probably be said in reply would be anything law enforcement doesnt already know or hasnt considered. With that having been said though, you need to understand why you are getting the response that you are.

 

i don't really share in the suspicion either. and get ready people....here is the answer to his question. DEA, are you reading? i hope so!

most LSD users do not get busted.
and most that do, do not snitch.

also, i doubt any of them are afraid of getting shot. we are talking about LSD, not cocaina

 

William Leonard Pickard is my hero

 

Yes, I do see the potential for the post to seem spooky. Sorry if it was abrupt. Not my first post actually, this is a new account, but there's no way for anyone to know that. I try not to post too much anyway, for privacy reasons.

I was curious as to how things work because I'm wondering how the future will play out. I do thank my lucky stars that it's still around even if I dont currently have access to it, but with increasing technologic surveillance, google permanently logging all your searches (they do), email-based correspondence, permanent computer-based databases of who sells what chemicals to whom, body scanners, getting fingerprinted to travel to other countries, etc., the police state and the ability of government to track who is doing what is going to continue to increase, and I'm wondering what the future holds. How far will the police state go? Will they be able to break the backs of those who aren't "with the program"? With all the irrational 9/11 based hysteria (give the police everything they ask for, even if unrelated to preventing any realistic "terrorist" threats), we seem to be headed for a technology-based "1984".

This is a topic I have been thinking a great deal about, as I am concerned the increasing police state, and all the various pernicious consequences of the drug war. I have read these and other related forums fairly thoroughly, books like Storming Heaven, My Problem Child, etc.

I was interested in other peoples' theories, but as some users have noted I can see potential for LEO to benefit from information posted, I certainly didn't have that in mind and apologize if the post seemed spooky.

What I was thinking of wasn't so much "The secret drop-off point is at latitude/longitude such and such", or revelation of the secret handshake, but more like general theories, such as that the social networks that distribute the stuff have multiple threads linking various groups, and if you shut down part of it, like the internet, the system as a whole maintains function and can reconstitute itself, or stuff like that.

Anyway, If anyone has some social theories about how things work that would be of interest for discussion, but not of potential utility to LEO, then I would be interested in them.

 

^^i truly think it's as simple as i stated above.

someone might occasionally get busted with L, and might narc the guy that sold it to him, but then they'd have to actually bust him with it / search warrant etc. etc.
but this isn't going to stop the people who are producing it. the ones that they distribute to are likely a tight nit group much like a 'family'
they are smart enough not to get busted, and they don't narc on family when they do.

it's LSD. it's tiny, odorless, easy to conceal. if you aren't a jackass flaunting it out in the open, it's probably kinda tough to get caught with it.

 

because most of the people taking it aren't fuckin snitches, there's your logic.

 

The tight-knit family thing would be nice to believe and is probably true to an extent, given the roots of LSD in the movements of the 60s, grateful dead, etc.

In that vein, interesting that the greatest producer of recent times (Pickard) fell not because of law enforcement's activities, but because he trusted a scummy low-life who narced on him (Skinner). That was a huge loss. Skinner should be drawn and quartered. Actually that would be too good for him.

 

If someone wanted to be a "Johnny Appleseed" of LSD, it would be best to have a lab all of one's own and tell no one about it (not a single person). Being based somewhere like eastern europe or africa with lax local law enforcement would be ideal. They could make huge quantities of it and deliver it anonymously by mail to people they know would be able to distribute it.

 

Most of the LSD users I know, don't get LSD though a chain of higher ups and professional salesmen. They get a few strips, maybe a sheet from a friend or from a friend of a friend. Cops wont give you any type of deal unless you can take down someone who sells professionally. I know, the cops have given me the opportunity, I would never do that though.

 

They could, but that's allot of work. I know Nick Sand for example had a few people helping him cook generally. Maybe not so much the cooking as the laying of product.