Why is Jesus so like Hercules, Dionysus, Mithra, & other pagan gods?

OK---I guess I will add a little bit more---expound a little bit more on this:

Do you think that these people emerged from the Hawaiian Islands and other remote locations? That God created them there? Or that God stuck them there with no means to get out of these places until other men would someday find them?

Linguistics, and the local mythos, shows differently---it shows that there is a connection to other peoples. There language for example has linguistic similarities not only to people all over the Pacific, but even clear accross the Indian Ocean to Madagascar---which is almost a stone's throw from Africa. Not to mention that the people of Polynesia, even long ago, have amazing sailing and navigation techniques.

I am working on a book which shows that there are certain word roots connected to a common archetype that is found in all languages---even aboriginal languages of Australia or the indigenous languages of the Americas and the Pacific. This shows that all mankind had a common point of origin, and a common primal spirituality. This is not so alien to Christian beliefs if you think back upon the story of the Tower of Babel.

The book also talks about the World Tree, or Axis Mundi, that I referred to in the previous posts. If you ask an anthropologist whether the fact that the World Tree is found in the mythos of cultures the world over is a coincidence or ties back to a common spirituality, they respond that it has to be a coincidence, because any common spirituality would have been lost eons ago.

But the only reason a word root could last so long as to be found in all of the world's languages----is that it had to have a strong spiritual significance that made it very important at an archetypical level---there is recent linguistic research on why some words don't evolve so quickly as others that backs this up.

I believe this language root is tied into the World Tree, and it therefore proves that both of these are tied back to a primal spirituality.

Why is there crosses that pop up in many different places of the world? They are connected to the tree in the Garden of Eden----the tree with the serpent. (Now the Hebrews split the axis mundi into 2 trees, Tree of Knowledge and Tree of Life---but there is precedent for that, and reasons behind why they did it--but it is still the same tree).

Have you noticed that these crosses are consistently connected to a serpent? Now you might say that this proves your point----it is of the devil. But consider this---in the original Hebraic story of the Garden of Eden---the serpent was not the devil, but the first wife of Adam---who appears as the Leviathan, or world serpent.

The serpent was intricately interwoven within the Goddess faiths. It was the symbolic consort of the Goddess. Therefore it was turned evil in the war of the male against the female in the cultures that influenced the subsequent Judaeo-Christian-Islamic religious complex.

But in truth the serpent was closely connected to the World Tree from the earliest of times, obviously as part of a primal spirituality. A good example of this is the caduceus, that is still used to symbolize the medicine profession today. Therefore we find it all around the world. It is not always a snake---it can be another serpentine form---the dragon in Europe and China for example.

In the Western Pacific, the Maori began to forget the snake----the islands were pretty much snake free once you got away from the continents---but there were lizards---so the snake became replaced by the tail of the world lizard, which circled the World Tree, just as the older snake of their ancestors did. As we move east and the memory of the original serpent becomes even more forgotten, it became replaced by the eel---such as we find in Hawaii (Tuna in Northern islands, Kuna in Southern or central islands---a name which ties it back to the root word I have researched).

Other examples include the alligator, and even the turtle. The Mayan World Tree, the cross you refer to, commonly emerges from a turtle shell---a serpent with a shell (or symbolic earth from which it emerges from on all sides). The cross beam of the tree is the double headed serpent---this is the same serpent connected to Quetzalcoatl (or Kulkulcan)----the featherd serpent. These serpents are common even up into North America---the sky maiden for example is a common theme of Native American creatrix---the stories involve her some how digging under, or in some other form interacting with the World Tree in heaven, and then she is either thrown, or falls from the sky----she lands on the turtle who saves her on the dirt on his back which becomes the primal land.

There is a petroglyph, I believe in Kansas of the world tree---not a cross---but a tree, and a snake rises up accross it. The tree and the snake cross three levels---the lower, middle and upper worlds.

The axis mundi, as the world center, crosses these same three levels, or more levels depending on the culture---but there is always lower level(s) a middle world (ours) and upper level(s). It is a spiritual center and the way to cross these various levels. It is also represented by the swastika and the spiral. It is a mountain, a tower (hence the significance of the Tower of Babel). a mountain (focusing upwards) and a cave (facing downwards). It is the omphalos, the pillar, the asher, smoke, lightning, the primal mound, the pyramid. It is found in all kinds of symbolism but it is the same archetype. In experience, it is the tunnel of the Near-Death-Experience.

You might notice the cross in the center of the Native American medicine wheel--this is the same thing, and hails back to the original spiral that evolved into the cross---but it is referred to as a tree. The cross of the crucifiction as well----is referred to as the World Tree.

It is no coincidence that the name of the hill where the crucifiction took place means place of the skull---it was mythically the place where the skull of Adam was buried. This hails back to a paleolithic axis mundi---a tree uprooted and stuck back in the ground with its roots facing upward---a skull was placed on top of the roots---representing the sky god.

We find this same connection to the skull and the world tree in other myth around the world.

It is no anti-christ that creates these crosses and deities around the world---it is the vestiges of mankind's primal religion which is buried in all religion---but you can find it more blatantly in the world's indigenous spirituality.

 

Well this sounds like a topic I may be able to find some time to talk about. Let us see, why are so many pagan related beings christ like in some form or another? I take that to be the initial question, so I'll base my answer off that.

Christianity is a melting pot of various religious and philosophical standpoints and ideals, granted the majority of it's basic theology stems from Judaism. Many of the modern Christian church's practices are based off of pagan religions that were absorbed partially or entirely by the pre modern church, specifically during the conquest of the Roman empire in europe and it's surrounding territiories. It is common knowledge that many of the Saints stem from gods and goddesses that were common in pagan culture when it was overrun. In order to entice and appease many of the pagans their deities were brought into the christian society as saints. This is also where many of the modern holiday rituals come from, easter eggs, christmas trees, bunnies, etc. Jesus as a simple man would not have been as appealing to the masses, and paganism has always been popular in one form or another, as such it is entirely possible that the jesus myth (which I personally do see as just that) was started to attract more followers and to increase the appeal of the man, more pagan features were added to him.

 

personally I could never buy the Christian description of Jesus' life. I really think that the man had more of a Buddhist or Hindu outlook than the Church lets on. much more.
many scriptures when cross referenced with the Bible show obvious inconsistencies...I personally believe that Jesus' was in India for most of his 20s and that could possibly be why that part of his life was omitted from the bible.

infact, I don't even believe Jesus died on the cross, but in Kashmir India where his tomb is. I've read that he was only on it for 6 hours, but had to be taken off because it was a Friday, marking a Jewish holiday that required all activities to be ceased. I believe Jesus escaped after. there are people besides Christ who were put on the cross, many...many survived several days.

but even if Jesus would be nailed to the cross for weeks, I think he would just enter Samadhi like any accomplished Yogi would...and infact, that is likely what he did. Jesus was of the Spirit at that point.

its also pretty cool to note that the Kashmiri are though to be the lost tribes of Israel, and they do look the part, and also different from most of India.


thats my two cents.

 

hey!... you do have a right to an opinion but i would appreciate it if you didn't slander my faith.

 

That's because the followers of those religions were mostly all killed or ostricized by Christians see bellow.

The specific crusades to restore Christian control of the Holy Land were fought over a period of nearly 200 years, between 1095 and 1291.

Other campaigns in Spain and Eastern Europe continued into the 15th century.

The Crusades were fought mainly against Muslims, although campaigns were also waged against pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, Waldensians, Old Prussians, and political enemies of the popes. Crusaders took vows and were granted penance for past sins, often called an indulgence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

 

I would appreciate a tug job from Angelina Jolie but we don't always get what we want.

 

It's possible that some of these are archetypes. Quetzalcoatl, the Feathered Serpent, symbolizes the dualism of existence--the serpent that crawls (the world) and the eagle that soars (the spirit). The cross is another symbol of humanity's crucifixion between the vertical and the horizontal. (I'm not suggesting that Jesus' crucifixion was fictitious. Crucifixion in Roman times was a commonplace event for anyone perceived to be a trouble maker.) In Aztec-Toltec mythology, Quetzalcoatl resurrected the human race by sprinkling his own blood on human remains from a previous creation. Quetzalcoatl was opposed by Tezcatlipoca (Smokey Mirror), symbolized by a polished black obsidian, who represents the distorted view of the world we have from out senses. This calls to mind St. Paul's phrase "through a glass darkly", and also resembles Maya, the Hindu/Buddhist god of illusion. The temptation of Quetzalcoatl by Tezcatlipoca may be compared to the temptation of Horus by Seth, the temptation of the Buddha by Maya, the temptation of Zoroaster by Ahriman, and the temptation of Jesus by Satan. Although there are important differences among these stories, to me they all express profound truths about the human condition, the powerful grip of material attachments, the struggle between the world and the spirit, etc. Instead of dismissing all but the Jesus account as the work of Satan, I see them all as expressions of the same or similar fundamental truths about the human condition.


It's also possible that there are historical/political roots to some of these stories. For example, Quetzalcoatl might have been based on an actual historical figure, a Toltec priest-king Quetzalcoatl Tolitzin, who came to the throne in the city-state of Tula in the 10th century C.E., and reflects his struggle with the powerful Jaguar clan devoted to Tezcatlipoca, which entrapped Quetalcoatl-Topiltzin in a sex scandal involving incest. The struggle between Horus and Seth reflects the rivalry between Lower and Upper Egypt, devoted, respectively, to those two deities. As the Messiah, Jesus was the hope of Jews who opposed the Romans and their priestly and Herodian puppets. In Jesus' famous exorcism of the Garadene demons, they gave their name as "Legion", which Crossan regards as a parable for the Romans.[FONT=&quot]

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Thank you Okie Freak---you got me back onto this forum---I got the e-mail about your post yesterday and I just had to get back on and respond to it---I haven't been on for quite a long time because of that worm that attacked my computer---and then when I got it fixed I have been writing and busy with all kinds of things---now I am trying to write but I have all kinds of diversions and now you have given me another one. $#%$%@% THANK YOU! YOU $%#%&$----just kidding. It is actually good to be back on.

Anyway---I wanted to expand on what you wrote about---especially when you referred to the similarity these motifs have regarding the truths of the human condition. You are exactly right on this---and this gets down to why these stories are so common, and are so common to the Christian ontology that understands the world through the duality of god-devil, good-bad. But there is a caveat to that---these truths to the human condition are true primarily for the planter, and civilized societies. (The hunter gather societies however have a more natural and true perspective, as I will explain).

As man progressed into a planter society where the group ethic became, out of neccessity, the primary focus, the institution of religion and everything else began to rise up. The group ethic gave rise to a stronger concept of the in-group and the out-group, and this too was incorporated into the philosophy of the institutions. Sometime after the rise of civilization you had a global revolt against the feminine. This revolt and victory over the feminine was the strongest in the Middle East. (It is interesting to note that this revolt, which would seem likely to occur within the early civilizations as they began this process of institutionalization, and growing affluence caused focus to gradually shift from the fertility apsects of the Mother Goddess, but strangely enough, there is plenty of mythical and anthropological evidence that shows the revolt happened throughout even hunter-gatherer cultures pretty much around the world).

As man shifted to the masculine aspect of nature, his psyche as well shifted focus to the masculine components of the mind. Rationalism over intuition for example. The problem is the masculine side of our conscious sees things in black and white, as opposed to the feminine which has a division of grey. In other words---the dualities of life stand out.

Our religion, reflects our relationship with our psyche. The cost of civilization, the group ethic, the rise of the masculine, and so forth resulted in 1.) A more highly developed ego, 2.) a more highly developed and oftentimes more deeply repressed shadow, 3.) a deeper conscious disconnect from the subconscious.

By ego, I am referring of course to, not a religious concept, but a Jungian concept of the ego as a filter that maintains a conscious consistent image or perspective of who we are. Everything that is not needed, not desired by the ego, or is currently insignificant to our conscious mind is filtered out to (or not allowed to surface from) the subconscious. The shadow is everything about our self that we abhor, are disgusted with, that our ego has determined is wrong, or that we simply believe is not 'us,' that the ego has repressed into our subconscious. When we see something in someone else that angers or disgusts us---we are angered or disgusted because we have those same qualities, but have repressed them. In fact the other person may not actually have that quality, because what is really happening is that you are projecting your shadow onto others. The deeper we repress the shadow, the more powerful and evil it becomes.

The subconscious mind is our link to the spiritual. But, because the shadow lies within the subconscious, civilized man is afraid of the subconscious, and what he thinks it represents. This is why Freud was so staunch in his sexual theories of the subconscious, and even pressed Jung to preach the same.

Therefore, beginning with the planter societies, you have this strong duality between the ego and the shadow. Therefore you find the very common motif of the twins, one good one evil. In fact, Quetzalcoatl and his evil opposite were twins. The good twin represented the ego-ideal, and the bad twin, the evil shadow. In the Western traditions, this began very early with the Book of Genesis, when the early Hebrews split the World Tree (the Axis Mundi I referred to in the post above) into 2 parts: the Tree of Knowledge (The shadow as embodied in carnal knowledge, fertility, and the feminine) and the Tree of Life (The ego as embodied in the ego-ideal, taken away from man, because now it had to be earned, ultimately by overcoming the shadow). Original sin then is the shadow as it exists within man's psyche. The duality of God and the devil is the external projection of the ego and the shadow. (By the way---a good movie on the shadow and its dynamic is Black Swan).

Therefore, in addition to all the myths and symbols that have been handed down through time, and which later religions built upon, even while retaining these ancient motifs, another reaon why you see so much similarity between Jesus and all these other mythical motifs, is that they are all built upon the same structural relationship within our own minds (The ego-shadow duality). This, to me, is how we are created in God's image---it is our psyche.

But here is the catch. The ego tells us the shadow is evil. In fact the shadow is very scary to confront, especially if it is deeply repressed (and because it is from the subconscious, it appears numinous and supernaturally powerful). More significantly, the ego tricks us and lies to us that the components of the shadow do not exist within our own personality. But the shadow is what it is---it does not lie.

In fact, if you confront the shadow, understand it, and reintegrate it into your ego-self, you destroy its power. This is a key part of actualization. It is also a powerful tool that Jungian psychologists use to heal. IN other words, in an underhanded way, it is the ego that is evil, not the shadow.

Unfortunately, if your whole world philosophy is based upon a duality---how do you escape it? The Book of Revelations and other prophecies speak of an eventual battle of good over evil, and if good wins out, then everything will be great. But if you think about it, what has changed? The devil was not destroyed, he is merely returned to hell---which is where he is anyway. He is after all immortal. And what about us---from a psychological standpoint, if ego were to win out over shadow, what would happen? Repression of the shadow---which is the whole problem of the duality to begin with. The shadow has power because it is repressed. Nothing is solved but a perpetuation of the duality.

Earlier I mentioned the Hunter-Gatherer cultures, and how they have a more natural and correct image of spirituality/psyche---a multiplicity rather than a duality. You will not find the dualistic myth of the twins among hunter-gatherers. (If you do, please tell me!) Typically they do not see the world in the duality of the good winning out over the evil. There may have been acts of injustice, or imporper behavior which set creation into motion, but this does not lead into a pathos of duality. The goal in hunter-gatherer spirituality is to achieve harmony among the many forces of the universe.

Hunter-gatherers have an ego and a shadow just like anyone else. The difference is that through the course of their ego-development, the shadow is not prone to be so deeply repressed, nor as developed. The hunter-gatherer lives a life of spirituality not religion, and he is therefore still connected to his subconscious.

Therefore the ontology of the hunter-gatherer is based on an internal psyche that recognizes all the powerful aspects of the subconscious and its many archetypes, and complexes: the anima (or animus) the teacher, the spouse, the guides, and so forth---including the shadow. This is a much more healthy relationship with the subconscious.

If you are interested in learning more about this---check out my blog at www.ancientspirits.wordpress.com

 

Thanks. Excellent post. I'll check out your site.

 

:cheers2:

 

How witty. :|