A Bastard Universe

But how could order come from absolutely nothing? There must have been pre-existing principles already in place to tell it how to order itself, right? Or, are you suggesting the whole Universe created itself on the fly, principles and all? That doesn't make any sense at all. Just look at the atomic structure of the elements, where everything is strictly ordered. Are you saying these things and, in fact the order of everything else, was arbitrarily assigned at the moment the Big Bang occurred? What an incredible accident, indeed! And all without rhyme or reason. And yet here we are today, trying to make sense of it all. Dude! If that in fact wasn't the ultimate contradiction.

Of course it does tend to reflect the materialist's point of view regarding an afterlife ... From nothing we came, to nothing we go, because nothing is all we ever knew. Really? So hey, we may as well pretend like we were never here, because this is but a brief interlude, to "nothing." I mean what do you expect from a Universe which is contingent upon its own bastardization? ... Indeed, with all the little bastards (people) scurrying about within and, without a God.

 

Do you know why you're here? Except that "mama evolution" tells you so? That would be pure speculation if, in fact everything "stems" from nothing.

Well, what I want to know is who got mama pregnant? Could it be that we're all bastards, of some "grand idea" we don't know about? Indeed, it's much easier to blame the woman in that respect isn't it? Why? Because she's the one who has the direct proof.

Of course if we understood that we do in fact have a father, maybe we would try and stop bastardizing everything else?

 

You want an answer?

0= (-1) + 1

Nothing dissolved into our universe, and it's been pulling itself together ever since.

 

if ya think about it, like you say, something had to start it. Why is it hard to grasp that our universe started it? (I honestly have no real opinion on whether we're new or recycled but let's assume we're the first universe)

Someone on this forum used to say that the proof g-d created this universe is that it's perfect. Don't get me started on g-d's imperfections but let's look at it being perfect.

A Quark, if you don't know what it is, is the rate of attraction between 2 objects, this has been publicised as the attraction rate from sub atomic particles (most importantly) right up to people to planets to everything in between (in my newspapers anyway). We are told that the further apart things are, the greater the attraction, but the closer the less attraction. Yes, it is therefore uniform, in theory..but in terms of gravity, the closer I get to the centre of the earth the faster I accelerate toward it; we all have a small gravitational field and I have never seen dust, for example, gravitate toward me and then get less attracted as it gets closer.

What about animals/humans? If the universe was in perfect harmony and balance why humans at all? we destroy everything we touch, it seems, like a virus. If animals/humans were so perfect why do they hump those of the same sex? I'm not saying homosexuality is a sin/bad, but if we were all perfect, we would all be attracted to those which would help the species/environment by procreation, or something far more uniform..

Mama evolution can go blow herself, for all I care. Evolution is a trial and error deal, where a change (however small) in the species happens suddenly to one animal due to gene/protein mixups when the baby is made, is more often than not fatal, and IF it proves helpful to the species (proven basically by the animal's survival) then more in the species get this alteration, through that animal's mating. I don't see this as perfect or even a good system. For example downs syndrome is certainly not good for the advancement of humans, but we continue to have children with it, due to no fault of our own, despite history teaching us that it is not an advantage but a handicap to the person. If the universe was perfect would species not 'learn' genetically that certain combinations were bad? No, it's trial and error, anything can happen when daddy sperm meets mummy egg.

These are a few, I could give you millions, but the universe is certainly not perfect. If everything repeats itself and we do have another universe on our hands, this one could be shrink-wrapped and sent to whoever is in charge of creating it as an exemplar of how NOT to go about things.

Why is the beginning relevant? Why must we always try to comprehend what we can never understand or know?

 

"A Quark, if you don't know what it is, is the rate of attraction between 2 objects, this has been publicised as the attraction rate from sub atomic particles (most importantly) right up to people to planets to everything in between (in my newspapers anyway). We are told that the further apart things are, the greater the attraction, but the closer the less attraction. Yes, it is therefore uniform, in theory..but in terms of gravity, the closer I get to the centre of the earth the faster I accelerate toward it; we all have a small gravitational field and I have never seen dust, for example, gravitate toward me and then get less attracted as it gets closer."

There are so many inaccuracies in this statement, I don't know where to begin.
Better to scrap the whole thing.

"What about animals/humans? If the universe was in perfect harmony and balance why humans at all? we destroy everything we touch, it seems, like a virus."

We are as natural as the stars. We are a part of the enviroment. Our works are as natural as anything else.

"If animals/humans were so perfect why do they hump those of the same sex? I'm not saying homosexuality is a sin/bad, but if we were all perfect, we would all be attracted to those which would help the species/environment by procreation, or something far more uniform.."

If people only mated with "perfect" partners- then everyone would need the same definition of "perfect". And eventually, everyone would be so similar that genetic degradation would set in.

"Mama evolution can go blow herself, for all I care. Evolution is a trial and error deal, where a change (however small) in the species happens suddenly to one animal due to gene/protein mixups when the baby is made, is more often than not fatal, and IF it proves helpful to the species (proven basically by the animal's survival) then more in the species get this alteration, through that animal's mating. I don't see this as perfect or even a good system. For example downs syndrome is certainly not good for the advancement of humans, but we continue to have children with it, due to no fault of our own, despite history teaching us that it is not an advantage but a handicap to the person. If the universe was perfect would species not 'learn' genetically that certain combinations were bad? No, it's trial and error, anything can happen when daddy sperm meets mummy egg."

You simply have no grasp of evolution or genetics.

"Why is the beginning relevant? Why must we always try to comprehend what we can never understand or know?"

It is human nature to seek understanding, and maybe YOU can never understand- But me, I rather think saying things are "unknowable" is to willingly wallow in ignorance.

 

Iacchus

Occam proposes this as an opinion.

Reality is a result of direction...
Human observation of reality suggests that the complexity of reality.
Is a COMPLEXITY REQUIRED ONLY BY DESIRE.

There is no need for the complexity of our reality.
Unless a 'direction' DESIRES the most complex thing of all
Self aware beings.

Thus ..agnosticism...

And the POINT that some seem to miss when talking logic.
Desire is NOT logic.

Occam

 

okay, so your saying the universe can't just magicly appear, but an all powerful and perfect god can? or do you believe god just always existed? ...if thats the case, then why coudltn the universe have just always existed?

 

Well, perhaps other universes had tried to start but with the wrong mix of laws, they would not have stayed formed, they'd have disappeared almost immediately. The fact that ours did have laws that could allow for a sustainable universe is why we are here to observe them. If it were any other way, we wouldn't exist, nor would the universe (at least as we know it now). So though it seems like it was planned by god because everything works together, it's just the way it is, because again, if it were different, we wouldn't be around to question these things.

Anyways, we humans evolved to be intelligent, thinking beings, without rhyme or reason. And the universe is far larger, far more mysterious. Just becaues it disagrees with how you'd like to feel or think, we shouldn't make rash judgements about the universe and it's origin. Without rhyme or reason? Probably, but that doesn't make it impossible (obviously).

 

Sounds logical. Perhaps logic is the frame which keeps desire in context?

 

here ya go: http://www.svpvril.com/musicuni.html

 

In other words it sounds like you're saying the Universe was here before it was here, in order for it to magically appear? Why the need to give rise to itself if it was already here?

 

Do you mean like a freeway overpass? No, that is not natural. Or if it is, how is that we can define between that which is natural and that which is artificially contrived? Do you think the whole of the rest of nature has terms for such things? That wouldn't be natural would it?

 

Iacchus,

So are you denying that Humans are a natural part of the universe?

The difference between a freeway overpass and a beaver dam or ant hill, (all "natural" inhabitants of Earth) is a matter of degree only.

Or are humans supernatural?

Artificial has the meaning "man made"- but we are a pruduct of the Universe, just like every other known thing in it.

 

i'm jus saying that in order for the universe to be here something has to precede it, like you said, but that there doesn't have to have been a universe before this one in order for this universe to function the way it does..I wasn't talking about HOW it began, or what began it, but whether something like it was there before it.

geckopelli, you really are an idiot.

 

No, there's no denying that the natural world exists, neither can we deny that we're here. That does not mean, however, that there is no metaphysical realm which exists beyond our five senses. In other words there exists the realm of the mind.

Do you mean like the difference between day and night? Do you see beavers building anything other than beaver dams or, ants building anything other than anthills? And, while we may have to make certain exceptions for ants (in terms of adaptability), we're generally speaking of a process which has evolved over the eons. Whereas most animals evolve within the environment, as opposed to outside of it. Also, if you have too much of any one thing, then you begin to suffer a loss of diversity as well as the eco-system. And that's not natural for an eco-system which has become fully established.

If there is a God the Creator, then yes, they have an aspect of God within themselves ... what is commonly referred to as a soul.

Yes, we are a product of the Universe, but the thing we need to ask is where does intelligence come from? If the Universe is so structured and designed to produce intelligence, why? Is the Universe inherently intelligent then? Or, is there something inherently intelligent which gave rise to it?

 

Might I suggest that the Universe has always been here, except perhaps in another dimension, which is non-physical (immaterial), prior to the Big Bang?

 

So, is it possible that man may have appeared here as transplants? Say like from another dimension, the same (immaterial) dimension which gave rise to the Universe in the first place? It might account for how something could appear to come from nothing don't you think?

 

you've totally miread every post I've made, and attributed ideas to me that are not mine, you silly little tart.

And now you deny that people are a natural part of existence.

Your mouth appears to work independently from your brain. And not very well, at that!

The universe was here before it was here indeed!

 

Iacchus,
"No, there's no denying that the natural world exists, neither can we deny that we're here. That does not mean, however, that there is no metaphysical realm which exists beyond our five senses. In other words there exists the realm of the mind."

It dosen't mean a "metaphysical world" exist, eithier. Your "realm of the mind", if it exist, is STILL a natural product of a natural ihabitant of the Universe.



"Do you mean like the difference between day and night? Do you see beavers building anything other than beaver dams or, ants building anything other than anthills? And, while we may have to make certain exceptions for ants (in terms of adaptability), we're generally speaking of a process which has evolved over the eons. Whereas most animals evolve within the environment, as opposed to outside of it. Also, if you have too much of any one thing, then you begin to suffer a loss of diversity as well as the eco-system. And that's not natural for an eco-system which has become fully established."

WE DO live within the evironment. To say we don't is non-sequitor.

"If there is a God the Creator, then yes, they have an aspect of God within themselves ... what is commonly referred to as a soul."

Complete assumptions. NOT A SINGLE FACT.

"Yes, we are a product of the Universe, but the thing we need to ask is where does intelligence come from? If the Universe is so structured and designed to produce intelligence, why? Is the Universe inherently intelligent then? Or, is there something inherently intelligent which gave rise to it?"

It may be an accident. Or it may be simply the next quatum level after self-awareness. REsearch is indicated, not all the assumption you've made.