Why Is Everyone So Anti-Datura?

I've dosed Datura seven times, at strong doses each time. And I've tried Belladonna once, too. I enjoy delirium. And I think they are useful as entheogens; I am less afraid, and more aware of reality. Incidentally, experience lends the talent of recognizing delusions, too. True hallucinations of course are still always "real" though haha.

 

I agree but really when you think about the "More is better" mindset most people are hip-deep in, it get's easy to see how an inexperienced user might easily overdose and either loose their mind, get very very ill or simply die.

I think another part of the problem comes from the random potency of the plant, (1 leaf may contain more or less than another on the same plant) as well as the individuals suceptibility much like with Dramamnine, some folks can use it and be ok, others may get really ill, so it's not really something that will affect all people equally at least from a toxicity standpoint.

I've only taken enough to "teeter on the edge" of delirium really but my use of it is more for it's effect on my dream state than anything else. But I have worked with it and at times fairly regularly for a number of years.

I think the real trouble may come when people just jump in feet first into it, taking large doses right from the start (this sort of goes for all drugs in my opinion) and just hoping they have fun and come out ok,,, but maybe this is just Darwin at work?

 

Haha, Darwin, perhaps. I do agree with your caution regarding initial doses; I first took much too much of this powerful deliriant, and I wound up in the hospital.

Though, it may just be that the very nature of delirium is to be dangerously near something so incomprehensible. In fact, even the process by which delirium is induced intrinsically produces many neutral and negative physical and mental side-effects.
This is what creates such a challenging experience, and I believe it is fundamental in the development that comes from entheogenic delirium.

 

Agreed,,, the real problem comes along when those who have no experience at all in the entheogenic realm come along looking for a new party drug because they read a paragraph of someones trip report on erowid, or a kid at school told them their older brother told them yada yada,,, then they die and whatever they used get's neg-repped by the media and Oprah and Dr. Phil.

 

Hahaha back in the day, I watched some kids take Datura they found outside a house where a rave after-party was going on, despite my telling them what it really was. "Witch's poison, a powerful, long-lasting, disturbing even, deliriant". Some ignorant prick thought he knew better, and started telling them about how he took it at a rave, and how he felt like grateful dead depictions of acid, with pink elephants.. Of course, true hallucinations are present. But not happy pink elephants usually. More like shadowy figures or rotten and decaying friends or terrible giant birds, and only from doses that are too high to be considered recreationally safe. It is unbelievable what sort of things people will believe when they have no real knowledge of what they're doing.

 

Ever see someone do something so stupid it literally hurts your brain like an icepick in the 3rd eye?

I wish "the experts and authorities" would just get out of Darwin's way already and let him do his thing.

 

Oh my, yes. Unfortunately, humanitarianism is pervading society, and selection will no longer have it's way.

 

Have you researched what anticholergenics actually do? (yeah, I spelled that all wrong)

It basically dulls all the signals sent by your body, to the point of almost putting you in shock, it starts killing you. Could cause all sorts of damage, even if you never end up in the ER or realize the damage.

If you want scary delusions, antihistamines are slightly less stupid, and something I would almost consider taking myself. (at one time, I was interested, but taking proper psychedelics, and some more delirious ones, like nutmeg, made me lose interest)

 

While anticholinergics inhibit nervous activity and reception, this neurological process has little to do with the psychological experience. Entheogens are not qualified by the chemical form or physiological responses, but rather by the effects on the psyche and self of the user. Additionally, I would like to stress to you that anticholinergics are reversible agents, and that the effects are temporary. While, long-term damage may present in various forms due to the physical reality, these can easily be avoided by a psychonaut, who will of course have done extensive research into any subject of interest and figured out a light and responsible dose and setting.

 

Simply taking enough for that sort of experience is not safe, the effects are reversable and even harmless to a very low level, but not to the types of levels you're talking about.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the psychological effects are solely caused by inhibiting acetylcholine, it's doing the same thing to your brain as your body, which is why shit stops working.

You speak of taking them safely, but we all know this isn't possible, even in one plant the levels vary so widely that knowing your body AND substance doesn't make it remotely safe.

So, people are anti-datura because it's very deadly, impossible to take safely (however hard one might try) and possibly damaging regardless, when there are things that make your brain work better, as opposed to worse, with NO toxicity danger. AND there are much less dangerous, accuratly dosed OTC chems available that do similar things to datura. Not safe, but not as dangerous.

So, taking datura, especially more than once, kinda makes you a moron. Doubly so if you don't understand why others don't like it. I might be interested in a single controlled anticholergenic experience, with pharmaceutical chems, or with a carefully measured extraction. But not simply taking datura.

It may also be possible to use very small amount in other mixtures, but most of them would simply be ruined by some dirty delusions in the middle of your nice clean enlightenment.

 

Wrong; Obviously not a psychonaut.
The neurological effects induce the delirium state (including true hallucinations, delusions, etc.), but the psychological aspect of the experience is determined by your mind.
Furthermore, psychonautic exploration of deliriants (which is indeed a hallucinogen class, as well as of value historically to entheogenic research) is obviously and intrinsically not completely safe. However, it is this proximity to mortality, as well as the duress one experiences, while delirious that can prove to be of most general value. These two factors, in fact, are why substances like Amanita Muscaria are used to overcome obstacles in the psyche and life.
I also find value in practicing recognition of reality and clear-thought, thereby strengthening mental acuity and cognitive lucidity.
If you need more evidence, the simple fact that this substance is being used by any individual for proper entheogenic purposes is anecdotal proof. Perhaps not the ideal source, but evidence nonetheless.

 

[FONT=&quot]SAFEST method of using Datura: PASTE.

A Datura or Belladonna topical paste will allow scopolamine, the "better" and less phsyically unpleasant of the anticholinergic alkaloids, to pass through into your body transdermally, while rescricting the flow of hyoscyamine and atropine (both of which cause more body load).

-Crush the datura seeds in a fine powder.
-Place the powdered seeds in some lard.
-Add some organic soot.
-Blend well.
-Cook over a gentle heat (below 100 °C) for 2-4 hours while stirring regularly.
-Let sit for a week (at least) in a dark place, stir regularly (several times a day).
-Filter.
-Keep the fatty ointment in a sealed glass jar, in a dark & cool place.

Note: The transdermal absorption necessitates of this compound necessitates gloves during preparation.
[/FONT]

 

No.

You seem to be taking some sort of view that seperates the mind and brain. This is not the case: everything that you think IS physical. It it directly physically caused by the state of your brain, including your past experiences and personality, and the chances caused by not letting it communicate properly by blocking acetylcholine.

Again, deleriants may not be totally safe, if you don't have a sitter, but there's no reason to pick inherently physically dangerous ones like un-extracted and un-quantified anticholergenics. Why are you talking like I said something against amanita? I have nothing against it and have considered using it, it's comparatively very respectable as a drug, next to datura.

Don't get me wrong, datura may do cool stuff, I already said I'd be interested in limited experiments with a sitter with quantified antichollergenics. It's mostly very romanticized, though. And that's fine, it's a cool plant too (plants, and psychoactive plants, are one of my things) and I'd like datura, when I have the space for a psychoactive garden. Doesn't mean I have to eat everything I grow.

You asked why everyone is so anti-datura, I'm telling you. You keep acting like datura has some inherent value to exploring your mind. Some delirium can have some value, but..... not much. And you can't just use the blanket excuse of being a psychonaut to justify damaging your body and mind, especially more than once, when there are ways that do NOT damage you and potentially kill you. Psychonauts explore the mind out of respectful fascination and curiosity, delirium is irrelevant to anything positive. Some things like LSD may trick the brain to make it do what it does, but datura just full on makes it malfunction, it's just random out of order signals, because your brain's not communicating with itself at the right speed.

Overclocking your computer is sort of the technical equivalent of taking LSD. It improves some parts, and allows them to function in a more fun, more effective way, accepting that you may encounter occasional errors as a result. Throwing water on your computer is the equivalent of taking datura. It just short circuts your shit, makes signals go to the wrong places, say the wrong things, and get there too slowly.

I don't think you're doing anything positive for your "reality recognition" skills, it's only by comparison to datura that things are more clear and real. Causing possible brain damage/death is not going to speed your brain up, it's just the contrast. Most people don't think it's worth potentially dieing so that by comparison, things feel real the day after (or rather, 2 days after...)

Also, in your paste tec, you wrote "necessitates" where you meant something along the line of "characteristics". Must just be the datura speeding up your brain and helping you recognize reality. But yeah, putting unknown quantities of datura on your skin sounds like a great idea, that way they can't pump your stomach at the ER, thus preserving your totally reality enhancing effects. How do you propose to know what chemical has better transdermal absorbtion? You realize one chemical can have different effects when absorbed different ways. Most likely you're getting just as much of all of them.

 

If you think of it like "Oh I want this experience so I'll take X amount now, for that" then you're right. But as it stays in the system for a while, it's really quite possible to slowly build your levels up to the brink over a few days taking micro-doses, thereby being reasonably able to avoid the risk of crossing dangerous borders,,, but then that's pretty contrary to the majority of popular drug culture usage of any sort so not something generaly considered.

I started by smoking 1 match head sized pinch mixed with some tobacco, gradually increasing this by one more, for 6 months I did this once a week till I could just barely sense an effect (Though I had already noticed a notable change in my dream-state). At this point I fenlt I had a reasonably safe dosage set at about a teaspoon of dried matter (I was mixing leaf, stem and root)

Rather than increase the dosage, I simply increased the frequency to twice a week, but then alternating 1 week on, one week off cycles to help ensure I didnt build up too much residuals in my system,,, and again began increasing the dosage slightly as before but twice a week after another 6 months.

It's allot like walking on eggshells but I'm quite pleased with the overall results of the experience.

 

FritzDaKat- I'm just interested, were you doing this for Medicinal reasons or for it's intoxicating effects?

 

I dont even bother telling people you can smoke it and use it. While it was in fact the first drug I ever used. After reading a witchcraft book..

 

It's impressive you've managed this, but I think the last thing I want is to spend extensive amounts of time with anticholergenic tolerance and my acetycholine all messed up. I can't imagine this being remotely positive for your health, and I can't imagine the rebound being positive.

I value my brain highly, this is the human bodies equivalent of spending months running your car on fumes to get a feel for how low it can go, or never charging your ipod beyond a few percent... You CAN, but all you get for it is reduced performance, and possible long term damage.

 

Excellent point Fritz.
In my experiences, I have dosed twice with high doses of seeds (I know, dangerous), and the other times, I have also slowly built up my experience; however, I dosed with regular applications of the paste I previously mentioned over the course of a week. By the sixth day I was experiencing significant effects, but I was testing my limits with the seventh.

Additionally, ROORshack, there is most definitely a difference between the physical and neurological brain and the cognitive mind. While thoughts are the result of a synapse firing or chemical/hormonal impulse, cognition's function is irrelevant to the effects felt in reality. An entire shift in perception can occur while delirious, which is why hallucinations appear true.
Thought Reality is a separate reality from the Physical Reality, but both are merely models for perceiving Existence.
It's important to realize that a negation of a certain effect is not analogous to frying circuits in a computer.

 

Scopolamine, the safest active chemical in Datura's is legal and is not regulated in the US. So if you were to try it, the safest way would be to just buy some. I'm not sure of any stores that sell it but you can order it off of the internet. Remember, not completely safe, but probably the safest route

 

The negation of that effect is the negation of life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcholine

Quickly scanning that page would lead me to worry that you could cause alzheimer's (with some degree of prematureness, or when you'd never develop it in the long run) by overloading the acetylcholine synthesis system, and it says you have reduced REM (even if you may have other dreaming benefits, when you do dream) when under acetylcholine inhibitor's effects.

I bet OP would love low blood sugar too.... I can hook you up with some good shit bro, top quality human insulin glargine solution, of rDNA orgin, strait from germany.... And you can totally slowly work your way down, so you feel normal with lower and lower blood sugar. And then at a point, you feel fine, just before you slip into a hypoglycemic coma, having been walking around thinking you could function, dangerously half-assing everything.