Regarding the Capacity for Control of the Schizophrenic Mind with Hallucinogens

I adore math. Although I have some issues with the incapability of our current math system to reach self-evidence.. Still, it is the most fundamental and valuable conceptual tool we currently have for understanding Existence.

Still , I've read a lot of McKenna's work, and honestly, even though it's interesting, it's crock. The "academic" wave of study of psychedelics back when LSD and DMT and such were first discovered was a pseudo-intellectual mockery of real empirical study.
Proponents of this movement did irreversible damage to the psychedelic research effort by purporting such Absurdism as "Elf-Machines" and UFO consciousness and metaphysical entities controlling the fabric of Existence.
Their "studies" were nothing more than drug clouded speculation.

Of course, this is excepting the chemical and physiological researchers; those who actually made and studied empirically the effects of psychedelics.

And Shivaya, I agree that apprehension does not necessarily mean you are not ready.
I'd advise you to do everything you can to make yourself comfortable. If this means keeping anti-psychotics on hand, have at it man.
You're going to experience a total loss of control very immediately with an effective 4-ACO-DMT breakthrough.
This can be jarring for even experienced psychonauts. So, just be safe bro.

 

I agree that McKenna's work is highly speculative, and as a 'conventional' mathematician, I see many holes in it.

BUT, I still think that research such as his, just research for the sake of research, should be funded and set as a high priority in society, above Wall Street Hedge-Funds and such. I think that the Mind is the most valuable thing the species has and even if the research pans out to be DEAD wrong, it is still valuable, because it allows people to stretch their most valuable tool, the Mind.

As much as I don't agree with McKenna's theories, I really do have a soft spot for the man in as much as the fact that he researched his own theories meticulously and didn't let the Establishment hold him back. You would be surprised how much the modern, cutting edge mathematics research is insanely abstracted, non-linear, and awe-inspiring. I have done Mathematics research under the influence of 2C-I a few times, and it really feels like the combination is "appropriate." I even came to a significantly deep understanding of the theory of Mathematical Field Theory (in Abstract Algebra) under the influence of Cannabis. The non-linear thoughts allowed by THC allowed my normal linear mind (remember, I take amphetamines daily) to release.

And, yes, I would suggest keeping some sedatives or antipsychotics in the Medicine Cabinet for any tripper. Good insurance policy!

 

I like to read Mckenna for entertainment more than for education. I agree with the fact that sometimes it's just too wacky. In True hallucinations he and his brother are hallucinating a spaceships and what not... it's pretty out there. However, I do still think there is lots of valuable info coming from him.

 

I do not support funding research founded in fallacy.
I firmly believe that the worthwhile pursuit is contribution of value to Existence (along with creation haha, but that's an aside). Despite false (negative) and existing (neutral) contribution adding to Existence, it is only factual, legitimate, practical, and valuable contribution that benefits and adds positively to Existence.
Funding ought to be given to projects and researchers dealing with valuable or unknown subjects.

Delineation of thought and societal focus is valuable. Original thought and creation are vital.

 

But how can one disprove McKenna's work, as silly as it seems. There is no way to literally prove or disprove it. If seemingly outlandish theories of the past like General Relativity, were not funded, they would have never been proven years later! I am not saying McKenna is right, but the culture of research should not be restrained to practical applications alone, but that is the Theoretical Mathematcian in me.

 

No, I agree that practical applications are not solely of importance and deserving funding. Practical was only one characteristic I mentioned. There is not a way to disprove any of his work. However, research so specialized and speculative is not worthy of funding that could be going to efforts that will solve problems in the physical reality (since we live there) or those that will gain for us legitimate (factual and repeatedly provable) knowledge about Existence. McKenna's work would have been only valuable to one facet of Existence. Perhaps he was right! Maybe we are being mind-controlled by Elf Machines that allow our minds to travel the physical world in the form of UFOs; a mind's eye view of the planet. This would be a valuable insight (if it were true) to our thought reality, but of little practical value to the physical. Therefore, an individual pursuit, and an endeavor wherein the material and physical is irrelevant.

Despite anything we believe, we still inhabit the physical reality, and we must work towards the greatest benefit.
The maximum gain is achieved when everyone does what is best for them, as well as what is best for the whole.

Furthermore, as unfortunate as the fact is, societal reception is necessarily taken into consideration. Such extreme and absurd and outlandish ideas cast an unfavorable light on psychedelics, portraying the idea that these drugs will make lunatics of any sane man (even the Berkley academic!). This is the sort of nonsense that spawned the propaganda and hysteria that to this day shrouds psychedelics from mainstream recreational drugs, and definitely from public acceptance.

 

I am going to answer your questions differently than etkearne as I know I am probably the most experienced psychedelic user responding in this thread and have different experience regarding this issue.

Yes, I have had my perception altered by both psychosis and psychedelics.

Sometimes. Usually when I have taken a psychedelic drug I certainly notice the visual hallucinations and the peak trip being generated from the drug. Where I have had trouble distinguishing the difference is the following days/weeks where I still feel a sense of being mentally altered. I'm not seeing things visually different like the peak effects of the drug but my associations to objects, people, concepts seem to be twisted/distorted as if I'm still on the psychedelic.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'stacking' but perhaps I answered it somewhat in my previous response. If you mean more like taking a psychedelic while going through a psychotic episode, well i'd say probably. Psychotic episodes for me are always viewed in hindsight, it's not like in the middle of psychosis I go "Oh I'm feeling crazy right now" it's usually a few weeks after I tend to reflect on some thoughts/actions or whatever and realize how absurd they were. Sometimes I do feel a little more 'up' than other times but it's still fairly hard for me to recognize on the day to day basis and it makes it difficult to form relationships.

In regards to the op, I think that psychedelics can make one aware of the instability of mental processes and relate that to their schizophrenia or psychotic disorder but I don't think psychedelics can cure psychotic disorders. Most psychedelics produce somewhat unpredictable affects, so the combination of the tolerance they produce and inconsistency in affects upon repeated exposure makes psychedelics a class of drugs that I don't think can be utilized frequently for most mental disorders.

 

guerillabedlam, I am currently feeling a bit off myself. Well, not like exactly this second, but as of late.. It can be difficult to recognize, and I also have had troubles with relationships due to this (although now I prefer solitude to be honest, so it's not a problem anymore). I find it's helpful to try to focus on exactly what is happening in the present.
I somewhat discuss this in the ego-loss thread as well, but it's helpful for me.

 

This is an awesome statement!

Your the first I've heard that can do math while stoned. lol

I believe that's the ego 'shift' so many of us experience. Life altering for many psychedelic trippers.

 

Yeah. I perform best, mathematically, under the influence of drugs in general. I am usually just high on amphetamines, but if I really want to get 'deeply' into a really abstract topic, I'll whip out something like 2C-I, or in the past, Cannabis. I think for computational, boring mathematics where you just solve problems, drugs would hurt rather than help. But, in higher mathematics, where you need creative bursts and the ability to think tangentially, the drugs help.

 

I agree. Non-linear thinking is hindered by regular perception.
Thought generation in a non-linear model is flowing and creative.

 

As an aside (joke), there is a math subject called "Linear Algebra" and it is hard but predictable. Basically, it involves only linear thinking. But then there is another subject called "Abstract Algebra" which, like you would expect, involves almost all non-linear thinking.

I do best in Linear Algebra when I take amphetamines, but they don't really help with Abstract Algebra, for which things like 2c-i or Cannabis help more.

Funny how obvious they make the titles of the math subject areas haha.

I started this semester of grad school this week, and my Analysis professor (another subject area called "Mathematical Analysis") said to us: "You need to know how to write a good proof in this class. But that is about the easiest thing in this class. The hard thing is the raw creativity you need to tap into in order to come up with the tangential tricks needed to WRITE those proofs." I think I will get my hands on some good Cannabis for when it comes to doing proofs in this class!!

 

That seems fun! See, college would be stimulating..

 

I never could get into algebra although I liked statistics and writing formulas in Excel. I do contract work writing capability studies for a machine builder. Cp, Cpk, statistical formulas. Math definitly pays! lol One of my roomates majored in Math and got a job with the State Dept. He was writing a newsletter for Wall Street types. Sold subscriptions. Smart as a whip but rather paranoid and when he bought a hand gun I moved out pronto!
What would you guys suggest for a 9th grader who is struggling with algebra? My kid used to get B's in Math in middle school. He's not ADD. We've checked a few times with his doctor the past few years after his school personnel mentioned it.

 

Thank you etkearne and !!oqia97Qkr6l for increasing the awareness of psychosis. I have had many experiences with this disease and find that the general public is vastly ignorant what this means or how it affects those of us who suffer. Personally I would be homeless because of psychosis if it were not for my family. I had a few full blown psychotic episodes before I ever even considered experimenting with alcohol or drugs, and this problem has followed me for many years. I can relate to both of your explanations of its effects, especially the subliminal aspects.

In my experience often times it begins with severe sleep deprivation over the course of at least a few weeks to a few months. And in the beginning stages presents itself as a "game" with a lot of subliminal or "telepathic" activity. There are often religious and apocalyptic undertones and the destruction of this world is imminent. I have found myself in danger more times than I care to elaborate upon because of this disease, and often alienated from the outside world aside from the persistent scorn I receive from those that contribute this "personal flaw" to my personality, as if I decidedly asked for these life circumstances.

One thing that is important to remember is you are not alone, there are others experiencing these same problems and there are those that have learned to mitigate this unwanted psychological debris to the wayside of their personal existence. Do not give up.