Ketaimine as fast acting anti-depressant in treatement resistant patients.

Thought some of us might be interested in this.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/736133


And heres an article that begins to explains why, for us geeks.

http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/...ub-drug-ketamine-lifts-depression-so-quickly/


Has anyone here ever used K (in small doses) for the treatement of depression? And also, since methoxetamine is also a NDMA antagonist, does anyone believe it could be used in the same way?

 

To me viewing ketamine as an effective anti depressant is like viewing daily alcohol use as good for your heart. In theory it sounds like a good idea but there is just way to strong of an addictive tendency with ketamine for either habitual use and/or heavy dosages for many for it to be used effectively as an anti depressant. And if you overdo it, it can make you feel even more depressed.

 

I somewhat agree but the affect can last up to two weeks. it's note as if they only felt better while tripping on ketamine. and the fact that it is fast acting is awesome too. 71% of patients got relief within hours where traditional antidepressants take weeks. We'll have to wait and see I guess, this is already in phase II for FDA clinical trials.

 

Feel better while being on a drug? WOW that's a breakthrough, no other drugs have that effect? UMMM can we say Heroin, alcohol, MDMA, LSD, Pot?

I've not met one regular ketamine user who has said there life has been improved through the drug and i've seen some people on it strung out like heroin. At best it gets developed into some other drug but it seems just like the pharm industry seeing $ signs with Ket and it will be like all the pharmaceutical opiates.

 

Well, I'm not accusing you of not reading the second article, but the research actually points towards the fact that its not the actual high of ketamine that is making people feel better, but (possibly) the inhibition of something called a eEf2 Kinase.

Don't get me wrong, I'm weary of big pharma as much as everyone else, but I actually think it's great that in the last 10 years or so the government started to allow research on compounds that they would have never allowed before (I understand ketamine is already used, but as you know they are starting to look at psychedelics and MDMA as well).

I think that thanks the easy availablity of information brought on by the internet, people are starting to wake up and realize we've been getting fucked, so those companies are going to have to start bringing something valuable to the table if they want to stay alive.




"We know that ketamine can produce a fast-acting antidepressant response in treatment-resistant patients, but no one really knows how that works. What we found is a necessary pathway for ketamine to trigger [that response]," says Monteggia. "We've identified a novel pathway never before linked to any behavior, let alone an antidepressant response — that could be a novel drug target."

That means drugs that inhibit or block eEF2 kinase could potentially work as antidepressants — ones that would take effect faster than any current medication and possibly without the "trippy" side effects that make ketamine desirable to some recreational users. Compounds like this currently exist.

"It sounds very, very exciting," says Emery Brown, professor of computational neuroscience at MIT, who was not associated with the research. "If they're correct, it most certainly could lead to new drug development. This is the first time I've heard of this possible mechanism.

 

It is a fascinating new avenue for psychiatric medication . . . we must not confuse the effects of ketamine use and ketamine abuse. Abuse of anything will leave you worse off than you began. The facts behind ketamine's long lasting anti-depressant action are science, not opinion. Yes, there is an abuse potential, but no different than with so many medications out there. It does not invalidate the medical use of the compound, it only means we have to be careful with how it's applied. Many people do ketamine in a recreational setting and still do not get addicted. Many on this forum can attest to this, including myself. I have used lots of ketamine and decided to take a break and it's been over a year since I've even contacted my source for it, who lives just down the street.

 

Down the street eh? I just might be looking you up next time I go to toronto

That being said, it looks like these guys are already on making a non-active version of it:

http://www.naurex.com/html/RandD.html

It seems to be causing quite a stir in the neuropsychiatry world too:

''Naurex's Novel Antidepressant GLYX-13 Recognized as One of Windhover's Top 10 Neuroscience Projects to Watch''

http://www.drugs.com/clinical_trial...top-10-neuroscience-projects-watch-10010.html

 

Yes. NMDA antagonists provide very acute antidepressant effects. The problem is that you would have to get shot up with Ketamine every week or so for the rest of your life.

As a chronically depressed person myself (Schizoaffective Bipolar Disorder), I will attest that the severely depressed don't usually go from a state of chronic, life-long depression to remission WITHOUT taking some antidepressant drug or intense psychotherapy being CONTINUED after the remission occurs.

I haven't been depressed in about 10 months. However, I am not going to stop taking my depression drugs NOR will I stop going to psychotherapy NOR will I stop to continue to better my lifestyle by eating better, getting sleep, etc.

That is my concern with this treatment.

 

how do you get the willpower to take care of your body when you get depressed? my boyfriend and i don't believe in antidepressants and i think he'd be a lot better off if he ate better and did yoga with me but i can never seem to get him to believe that being healthy will actually affect his mental state :/ i want the viewpoint of how someone on meds thinks about it so that i can compare it to someone not on them

 

I can take care of my health, eating patterns, and well-being when depressed simply because I KNOW that it works! I have suffered from this nasty mental illness since I was 12 years old so after many years of trial and error, I know what works and what does not work.

Taking care of yourself, having a meaning in life, and having a routine in your day all contribute to feeling good about yourself and are key to recovering from depression.

 

What are you face palming about noxious? have you ever had friends strung out on ketamine, and hear there stories about them selling their shit to get a fix and try to steal your ket? if not shut the fuck up. Stick to the LSD section, you are truly ignorant about alot of drugs.

As the post directly after mine said and what I said anyways it sounds like they are trying to form a non psychoactive analogue of ketamine in regards to the depression, which sounds it could be potentially better.

 

Yes but this company (naurex) is actually working on some compounds that act as NDMAR antagonists and dont have the mind fucking aspects of K. One is in phase II of clinical trials. They are even working on some that would be orally active (these are still in the pre-clinical phases):

Naurex is developing the NRX-1050 series of GFPA agents that modulate the NMDA receptor—a second-generation, structurally distinct series of orally available molecules. The NRX-1050 series comprises novel patented GFPA chemistry classes with key molecular features, representing a platform for the development of new orally available therapies for a variety of CNS disorders. The numerous synthetic small molecules in the NRX-1050 series have a structure and mechanism of action similar to GLYX-13. The series includes multiple potential lead molecules, and in vivo data demonstrating proof of concept have been generated for a number of the candidates.

Naurex’s initial development focus for this fast-acting, potent oral series is depression. Naurex expects to file an investigational new drug (IND) application for the lead molecule in the NRX-1050 series in 2012.

 

To the people who have use BOTH Ketamine and MXE, what is the difference(s) in your opinion?

 

As far as the effects go, I tend to take them both to trip, but I have taken both at lower doses as well.

Ketamine

Has a quicker onset, and is a more encompassing trip. The 'K hole' often can feel like going to a different dimension but it's far more easier kind of a trip than like DMT, DPT, Salvia and some of the more traditional type psychedelics. You can just inject (or snort) and sort of lay down and let it come over you without too much worry. Often with eyes open the room sort of spins around and looks like elevators going down and it'll change directions at times. Ketamine is more anesthetizing than Mxe and clouds the mind more.

Mxe

Mxe is more potent by dose and more clear headed. Very rarely have I experienced complete disassociation on it and in fact I enjoy walking around on fairly high doses of it. It has sort of an opiated dreamy feel to it. Mxe lasts about 3x the duration of ketamine and it can have some very pcp-ish like after effects after higher doses which some have reported some distressing experiences from and I don't find terribly pleasant.


At lower doses they both are essentially like being drunk with a slightly trippy buzz. Both experiences significantly benefit via injection as well.

In regards to the topic, they both feel good while being buzzed but I haven't really noticed much of a difference between either of them and say alcohol as far as lasting effects go. An immediate carefree quality but after the experience ends, it's a back to the reality type thing with not much learned usually or lasting (cept a possible hangover). They tend to not produce 'bad trips' but they both have incredbily rapid developing tolerance which is another thing that doesn't bode so well for the anti depressant effect thing imo. And they both sort of create this effect for me, although mxe to a lesser extent..

After taking ketamine for awhile, you will start to associate the drug with pleasurable experiences. Not having access to it when you want to can trigger emotional withdrawal symptoms, such as depression, irritability and insomnia. In some cases, the psychological addiction can lead to binge behavior, where the user keeps ingesting the drug to continue in the experience longer.

 

Thanks

 

Yes. This is promising news. I actually currently TAKE a mild NMDA antagonist in my daily regimen. Magnesium is an NMDA antagonist that does not mess with one's thinking and has no side-effects. I truly feel a difference when I take it. I just have more resilience throughout the day. Of course you have to buy the Chelated version or else it won't be absorbed at all, though.

 

I guess we'll have to wait and see how phase II does. I have my hopes, personally. My depression is weird. Its usually REALLY bad, but only last a few days, so it's not really any use for me to be taking SSRI's. I would be delighted if they could come out with a fast acting ''advil for depression'' kind of pill.

Do you feel the magnesium has an immediate effect, or is it something that builds up? Also, what do you mean by chelated version?

 

there's another thing to add to my list of things that stack with dxm to get me way higher

 

^^^^


yeah k used to be a good anti depressant now i'm coping with the aftermath of the massive k binge culture in the UK... seriously does fry your mind and scramble your insides badly.

seriously if you want anti depressant effects and decide to use medicine use DMT (Ayahuasca)... maybe Mushies something like that but DMT is king....