Does the Koran teach that apostate Muslims should be killed? If not, what is the basis in Islamic teaching for killing Muslims who convert to other beliefs?
I'm no believer and I think all Holy books have been "modified" for political reasons BUT by common sense I can say that the basic of all religions is Tolerance and Love. Because that's how you reach people and spread your religion. In both christianity and islam. However, people like to praise their own religion while blaming (actually marketing) others' religion as evil, coercive and etc. Nothing in Islam has anything to do with (even the beating of animals, let alone) killing. The only killing is the sacrifying of animals, but that is done to feed the poor by distributing the meat (you dont need to slay the animal yourself in this century. you can buy provisions from the S.market and distribute them) Islam is so precise about being nice to people that if you hurt someone on purpose and if s/he does not forgive you then you'd be in a lot of sin. It's all up to that person's mercy. (But generally -as a tradition- during the funeral ceremony everybody shows mercy to the dead) People who claim that they kill for islam or christianity talk pure bullshit.
Allah(may he be exalted) says (interpretation of the meaning): "Alif Laam Raa. A book which we have revealed to you (Muhammad) so that you may lead the people from out of the darknesses into the light by their Lord's leave to the path of the All-Mighty, the Praiseworthy." ." [Qur'an 14:1] Those people who then leave this light to live a life as an unbeliever after have been among the muslims deserve not to eat from the food of this world, those who have left the greatest of blessings and excite others to leave as well deserve nothing than death. This is an order from the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) and this has been written in the bible as well and has been confirmed by both jews and christians; "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "And as for a man or woman in whom there proves to be a mediumistic spirit or spirit of prediction, they should be put to death without fail. They should pelt them to death with stones. Their own blood is upon them."Leviticus 20:27 "
I would like to see a muslim show that people who leave islam are not to be killed that is by using islamic sources not wishful thinking. http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1193
Yes, this was the law in the Old Testament theocracy of Israel, but it has been supplanted by the New Covenant of the Messiah: You have heard that it was said, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Mt. 5:43-48) The Old Covenant community (Israel) was purged of evil by execution. The New Covenant community (church) is kept pure through excommunication: If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Mt. 18:15-20) If an excommunicated sinner later repents, he is to be welcomed back with open arms: But if any has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not to me, but in some degree--in order not to say too much--to all of you. Sufficient for such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the majority, so that on the contrary you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a one might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him. For to this end also I wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ, so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes. (2 Cor. 2:5-11) The fundamental difference between the Mosaic and Messianic covenants is that the former was externally imposed, while the latter is "enforced" internally by the work of the Holy Spirit: For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, `KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE. [Jer. 31:31-34] When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb. 8:7-13) Unlike the Koran, the Bible recognizes that genuine faith must be freely accepted or rejected.
at least with christianity you dont feel that people have a gun to their head to stay in. I know people who pretend to be muslims because they are scared of what would happen to them . I think the reason for this is that islam wouldnt survive if people were more free
Exactly. In fact, if you're not serious about Christianity, you're encouraged to leave the church. From a Christian perspective, nothing is more spiritually destructive than play-acting for the sake of appearance. Clerical tyrants evidently don't believe that Islam can bear close scrutiny; they remind me of medieval Popes who prohibited Bible reading by laymen.
Ive also been on forums and western converts or reverts as they call them have said they would kill members of their own family for islam . there is haddith on this same subject where members of the same family were fighting on different sides and the muslim tried is best to kill the non muslim family member
This is what is written in the bible: Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away an withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Christian leaders were forcing there faith upon people and this is how christianity survived by threating to burn up those who didn't want it. I am not saying that apostates are to be left alone Johnny i am saying that they should be excuted like the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) May Allah(ma he be exalted) save me from following lusts and saying tat which I have no knowledge of, huckelberry how come you don't follow the prophet which is mentioned in your book and whom it is said in your bible: If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. I will defend my statement of the mentioning of Mohammed(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) tomorrow if Allah so wills.
That's right. He fulfilled them perfectly on our behalf, in order to institute a New Covenant of grace. God will "sift the wheat from the chaff" at the final judgment. He came to divide humanity between people who believe in him and those who reject him, and to supercede all other loyalties his people might have. It's true that such abuses became common centuries after Christ, but the early Church survived in spite of suffering severe persecution by unbelievers. Persecution by Christians is clearly contrary to the example and teaching of Jesus and his apostles. I understand you quite clearly. If you're referring to Dt. 18:19, I believe this ultimately speaks of Jesus. See Heb. 1:1-4; Gal. 1:6-9. Mohammed was a false prophet!
See my thread in the christianity board if you would like to discuss this issue sense I don't want to get offtopic.
how many muslims are working to the day where a future state will kill apostates ,some say that they themselves wont kill apostates this is especially the case with muslims living in the west . but thats what they are for the most part working for . if you go on catstevens.com thats what he says about rushdie that because he isnt living in a islamic state he wont personally kill him . but a islamic state is what cat stevens has worked most of his life to bring in so he wants people like rushdie dead just at present he knows he and his fellow nazis are to weak to kill him . now if cat stevens was sorry about what he did during the rushdie affair he would say he didnt want rushdie dead for writing a book he didnt like ,its that easy he wont do that because old mr peace train doesnt believe that so its a broader question than how many muslims here would personally at this time kill apostates its what their aim is .
I see that no Muslim here has responded to Jonny's last post. Does this mean that he is correct about their ultimate agenda?
Ultimate agenda? I think that you your self are well aware that this statement was hyberbolic and deceivefull, I can't think of any religion where the mail goal would be killing apostates. We muslim civilians can't kill apostates our selves no more than you can build your own prison in your guest room and then arrest people by your own, no society would work if this would have been the case. The punishing with flogging or imprisoning etc is in the hands of the goverment to be carried out.
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,6119,2-10-1462_1646254,00.html They apparently found out where ayaan hirshi ali, (the women who made submission with the late theo van gogh) was and planned on killing her too over the new year . "ultimate agenda? I think that you your self are well aware that this statement was hyberbolic and deceivefull, I can't think of any religion where the mail goal would be killing apostates" I would guess you ment to say main goal , well ideally you wouldnt want to have apostates or to have to kill them. but islam isnt the sort of religion that just concerns itself with spiritual matters it aim is to get islamic states ,which would kill apostates . if cat stevens isnt working for a time when people like rushdie are killed he could make that kind of statement ,he could say I dont now or ever want people like rushdie to be killed he hasnt said that . all he said was that today he cant kill people like rushdie , during the rushdie affair he said he supported the fatwa and that if he knew where rushdie was he would tell people who would do him harm . I think cat stevens is a weasel, in some ways I have less respect for him than for people like osama at least there is a type of honesty with osama , with mr stevens you just get the feeling of pure weasel and flim flam artist
It seems that you confuse the tenets of a religion with certain adherants of said religion. I realize that this post is probaly pointless, as you have your mind made up as to what Islam and Muslims are about, but I must say that you are mistaken. Your spelling of Quran (Koran as you put it) speaks volumes on how little you know about Islam. I doubt you have even read the Quran. Nowhere in any of Islam's holy book does it say to kill apostates. Apostate is a Christian word anyhow.
There is evidence derived from the authentic statements of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) that apostates under an islamic state(if there would have existed one) are to be killed. One who has seen guidance and followed it then rejected it, is not same as the one who never saw it at all.
you will find the qur"an spelled koran or quran Ive seen it spelled quraan I have copys of the qur"an spelled koran, in fact I found one a minute ago under my computer table in a box of books with that spelling. anyway apostate is a christian word but muslims have the word murtad which means pretty much the same thing Nowhere in any of Islam's holy book does it say to kill apostates really "Make no excuse; you have disbelieved after you had believed. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you because they were criminals" [Quran 9:66] "Verily, those who disbelieved after their Belief and then went on increasing in their disbelief - never will their repentance be accepted [because they repent only by their tongues and not from their hearts]. And they are those who are astray. Verily, those who disbelieved, and died while they were disbelievers, the (whole) earth full of gold will not be accepted from anyone of them even if they offered it as a ransom. For them is a painful torment and they will have no helpers." [Quran 3:90-91]
