Our physical body...

I thought the method of death was part of, "prophecy". It certainly is presented that these things were done to "fulfill", prophecy. Is satan in your view then, a collaborator with god in fulfilling prophecy. Do they huddle together and say you serve up the sanhedrin and I will poke him in the side with a lance?

Does the term fruit cake remind you of holiday cheer?

 

Thanks for explaining thedope.

Your mother conceived you perhaps not with you wholly in mind. Your father too, perhaps. It is perhaps with me also. And if it is perhaps this way with everyone who has been conceived, are we really going to let it be called 'sin' by those who can't tell baby from bathwater?!

There is no sin, yet there are excuses sought for it and from it! You are right. Christ-teaching is not for me. But I still have ears to hear. As your friend and brother, anyone who tries to fracture you shall have to face me, in my element.

 

There is no sin but there is a belief in sin and it is at the level of belief that the illusion of insufficiency of self is undone. Only our own thoughts can harm us.

As I have said to waterbrother, "sin" is not inherited but taught. It is taught to children by parents who introduce to them the idea that they have been, or are, bad for one reason or another.

 

thedope:

Or merely that 'bad' is somehow as inherent to humanity as the natural inclination towards what does us good. Fear is a problem. Thankfully we don't have to possess it in order to address it.

 

Sorry, a typo, I corrected it for you.

No I didn't miss it or the rest either of it but it has little or nothing to do with what we were talking about.

It does allow you to question me about the gifts of the Spirit and that is fine but that is not what we were talking about. Next time try to be a little more specific, if you don't mind.

As for gifts of the Spirit; for you to have a gift of the Spirit, you would have to have the Holy Spirit. While I will admit that you seem to have a spirit, that spirit is "teaching" you to disregard the Bible, God's word and that in of itself proves that you don't have the Holy Spirit and thus have no gifts of the Spirit to recognize.

The Kingdom will restore the Earth to a paradise but it will not be the original Garden of Eden.

As for the rest of the Earth, as I said the entire Earth was covered with water and covering the Earth with water did make the earth not exist, no more than a modern day flood would make a swept away car not exist. So when the Flood waters disappeared, they left the Earth you now see existing.

And this, "Seems to me we need to ignore many extant things to believe in some of the imaginary scenarios you have adopted." Yes, I have "adopted" the "imaginary scenarios" that God's word says happened and I might ask why don't you?

Still, you say your spirit buddy "teaches all things". Are you now saying that it "teaches all things" except for the answer to my question?

Did I say the meaning was altered?

As for; "is there some level of verification or refutation that you have discovered from finding the quote in the bible?", yes. In reading the Scripture in context, Paul is not talking about "our physical body", as you seem to imply but about those ignore "minding the spirit", to live only for the physical life. So the Scripture is not condemning the "physical body" but those who are not minding the spirit.

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Learning about sin is not the same as learning sin.
Care to try again?
​

Yes, "the wages of is are death" but what does that have to do with the fact that Paul who was at the time "born again" saying that he was still waring with sin?

 

Because his sacrifice bought or ransomed us back from sin and death.

Enough for what? The sacrifice is only part of the working out of God's purposes.

I would say it depends on how you're looking at it. If you are looking at mankind in general then it would be a reconnection but looking at it individually, I guess you could call it a "connection", if you want.

If you are looking for the exact word "disconnected", you won't find it. There are many "words" that we use to describe the concepts found in the Bible and those "words" are not found in the Bible. In fact, if you want to be picky, there are no English "words" found in the original language manuscripts of the Bible.

Mankind has done many things, not found in nature, that can be called evil, genocide for one thing.

puh-tey-toh / puh-tah-toh

Why, to you, does mankind seem to be prone to this "illness".

But Jesus didn't, you did.

So you say but what proof do you have, other than your word for it?

It would have been "ok" with me.

The prophecies in the Bible, as thedope pointed out, show that Jesus would be put to death and pretty much the way he was, so yes.

Can you?

 

It is but I was talking about whether Jesus' death, regardless of circumstances, could have settled the debt owed and I was saying possibly.

As for Satan's involvement, God did not have to "huddle" with Satan for God to know what Satan was likely to do. In fact God knew Satan so well, he could predict his actions with certainty.

No, I do not celebrate most of what are called religious holidays.

 

?

It has, again, everything to do with what we are talking about. We have one life in god, not many. The reason you are not deft in accessing the conversation is that your understanding has been subjugated by your belief that your answers are in the book.

If you will note the bold portion of your statement, you will see that it is not true. I just referred you to the entire twelfth chapter of first corinthians so I can't be disregarding the bible. You confuse your interpretation or beliefs about the bible with the actual contents of the bible. The bible is a book of symbols that by necessity require interpretation.

What is the matter with the earth now?

How is it different than from before the flood?

I interpret the bible, if that is what you mean by gods word, according to real events in my life with the holy spirit. If my interpretation of the bible required me to ignore real things for the sake of my imagination then I would believe as you I suppose.

The holy spirit does not teach me things that you may require of it, but it does teach me all things I want to know.

No you did not but you did say my quote was not verbatum or perhaps that you could not find the verbatum translation.

Everything is an idea. Why is it not the same? We learn what to look for in life from our parents and environment. I was not taught to seek first the kingdom of god, I was taught to conform to worldly standards. It was not until I was baptized in the holy spirit that I knew or could recognize the sign of god. Until then I had not seen one real thing in this world as it was all presented to me upside down inside out and backwards in every way.

If paul died to the flesh and was born into spirit as he claimed, then he would be freed of sin and no longer in contention with it. I was pointing out that paul said many things and many are not consistent with each other in a linear sense. He says a thing one way in one instance, and says it in another way in another instance. This is relevant to our discussions as I have tried to alert you to the phenomena of "figures of speech".

 

You are not certain then what the requirement actually is?

Must be true of you also. If god can predict your actions with certainty, what of "free will and all that"?

Fair enough.

 

The real reason I'm not "deft in accessing the conversation" is that you don't know how to carry on a conversation. You keep making obscure, ambiguous, obtuse and obfuscating statements and expect others to just know just what in the world you are talking about, it's almost as if you are afraid for people to know what you are talking about.

Yeah, right and that is suppose to mean that you highly regard the Bible? Just because a person refers to something does does not mean they highly regard it.

See, where is your high regard for the Bible now? You believe that it is just a book of symbols that you can interpret anyway you want.

Nothing is wrong with the planet Earth and never has been, except for the fact that it is inhabited by imperfect mankind.

Well, as I pointed out the Garden of Eden doesn't exist anymore.

Actually it would mean that you would believe as you already do.

And I thought you wanted to know the answer to the question.

If you really want to get picky, verbatim would mean that you also used the same punctuation and capitalization, which you did not.

Because one is subjective and the other is objective.

We learn but how we learn it, depends on many things.

Whether you have been "baptized in the holy spirit" or not, is still up for discussion but what is this "sign of god"? Since you use "god" instead of God, I can only assume you are talking about one of the false gods the Bible speaks of than Almighty God, Jehovah.

You still seem to see the world upside down inside out and backwards in every way.

So you say but that is not what Paul said and again I remind you that Paul was recognized as "born again" by the apostles of Jesus, and was himself called an apostle.

Again that is what you say but in reality there are no inconsistencies in what Paul has to say.

Saying something one way and saying the same thing another way is in no way inconsistent and I am well aware of the phenomenon. It is you that feels this makes the things Paul says "not consistent with each other in a linear sense".

 

When talking about the possibilities of what might have happened and not what actually happened, only God can weight out all the possibilities.

Yes, God can at any time remove our free will by foreseeing what we will do but God does not look at the future from an individual standpoint and in order to leave us our free will, he only predicts what will happen in general and generally does not predict who will do it.

In the case of Satan, it doesn't take God to predict that Satan will continue to do what he has always done.

 

I read those from Proverbs and Jeremiah not so much as the heart is always treacherous, but that it can be treacherous in that those who walk wisely (use their brains) are good as gold.

I was more getting at the bottom points you made that it is the misuse of our gifts that is evil, not the gifts themselves.

 

Thanks for bringing us back to topic.

As for the physical body, I can't think of a single reference that tells us that it is bad or sinful in of itself. Even the Scripture about the heart seems symbolic of our seat of motivation and is not talking about our physical heart*. And the term Flesh is also talking symbolically about being caught up in the world around us and forgetting that there is a spiritual side to everything.

I also believe that those who chasten the actual flesh have misunderstand what the Bible says on the subject.

*Although, a long while back I read about the heart having some areas that were similar to brain tissue and that the heart could have some actual "feelings" that direct or work in conjunction with the brain but I have not heard anything more about it.

 

So you are not certain what the actual requirements are?

And your "biblical" basis for this extrapolation?

It doesn't take god to predict anything. Satan is a symbol, not a being, of an element of our own character that manifest itself in the propensity to find fault or guilt in one another.

 

OWB:

Definitely? Or...

Possibly?... You believe life is a debt, that much is obvious.

Enough for what you consider to be the 'debt'.

Even in looking at it generally it is looked at individually in any case. You cannot disconnect something in advance of its connection.

I'm not looking or asking for the exact word, but for where in the text you think it amounts to saying as such. So you can't tell me?

How is that an answer to my question? Where is genocide found if not in nature? As far as our humanity goes, it is clearly a mistake, but are you serious? "Not found in nature"?!

Because humanity is capable of destroying itself, which does not mean it has to.

And? If I say no-one is disconnecting you from god, what is your answer OWB? Are Adam and Eve still stopping you? Are you waiting to die or something equally absurd? -To 'live'?

Is it that since Adam and Eve are dead to you, are not Man and Woman alive and well, you think it is Satan maintaining your disconnection?

If that's the case, I can only say that just because there's no proof Satan doesn't exist doesn't mean there is reason to believe in Satan, as you do. If you find him, 'in nature', let me know, and I'll help you vanquish him. lol

Good to hear, but then you write:

So...you cannot be clear?

With regard to what? The death of Jesus? I do not believe he needed to be murdered. I have no trouble in saying so.

 

What do you mean here?

Yeah, we generally agree OWB. My original post generally goes back to when I at odd times listen to Protestant talk radio and I hear these preachers often contradict themselves, and generally spout things I believe to be untrue based on the Tradition of Scriptural interpretation.

Specifically, I think this came about because one was equating Paul's use of "flesh" in his letters to literal flesh and that our bodies are bad and that is where sin is, and then that is why we get resurrected with spiritual bodies

 

Things like self-flagellation

Don't listen to media evangelists.

 

Requirements for what?

Why do you care? For months now you have indicating that you really don't care what the Bible says and now you have a burning desire to know?

Yes, of course Jesus was tempted in wilderness by a symbol, an element of his own character that manifest itself in the propensity to find fault or guilt in one another.

Where do you come up with this stuff? Oh, that's right it's all your spirit buddy's teachings.

 

Or what?

Do you have to work at being this obtuse or does it come easily to you?

yes.

Once again, do you have to work at being this obtuse or does it come easily to you?

The whole story is the story of Adam and Eve's rebellion from God, basically telling God that they no longer needed his guidance and were able to decide for themselves what is right and wrong. In affect disconnecting themselves and thus all mankind from God.

Okay I'll bite, other than mankind, where is genocide found in "nature"?

How does this answerr the question; why, to you, does mankind seem to be prone to this "illness".

If a storm disconnects you from the power lines, after the storm is over what prevents you from reconnecting your self to the power lines? Is the storm still stopping you?

As just pointed out in my illustration, it is not always in your power to reconnect when you have been disconnected, sometimes you have to wait for "someone who has the proper knowledge and tools" to reconnect you.

Yeah, you do that, you go and "vanquish" him.

there are none so blind as those that will not see.

So no, if you will not even try to understand what is being said then no matter what is said to you it will not be clear to you.

Okay, then where does that leave you?

 

OWB:

In effect? So you're saying God had no choice but to disconnect them?

You mean to say you have nothing to say in response to my point that you can't disconnect something in advance of its connection, and won't admit it? Or is it acute blindness?! lol

You call that biting?! : D OWB, it's not me that's saying it's not found in nature you snapping turtle! But, to satisfy your hunger, there are similarities to it in chimps, and wolves too I'm told.

You will not see? I mean, it's fine if you just don't understand.

I could swear you're illustrating my point! lol It's alright, you can share it if you want to.

: D Seriously OWB. I don't think you're a bad guy. If there really was a being called Satan trying to get you, I'd genuinely try and stop him.

I may not be a religious man, but I'm not a bastard! lol

I was trying! I still don't get it though! It seems backwards to me!

You tell me OWB, I'm right here.