Our physical body...

you body is neutral it is how you use it that is where it could be a problem. It only does what it is told by you to do. Do you use your body for evil or good? Either way it is still neutral and only does and goes where and what it is told.

 

What is precisely is required by god to pay for your sin.

You are misrepresenting me again.
I never said I didn't care what is written in the bible. I have said that I don't care about your interpretation of it except to the extent that it creates barriers to the perception of love. I know that your interpretation causes you to entirely miss the perception of the holy spirit in me. I don't have a burning desire to know but it is the thing you ask of me, where is my scriptural basis. I think you should be held to the same standard, that is all.

No jesus was not tempted by a symbol but he was present to elements of his own personality and "being tempted in the wilderness by satan" is a symbolic representation of that.

You are misrepresenting me again, I learned this from the holy spirit, the comforter who god has sent to me, because I asked. I did not leave it to myself to figure it out through reading and comparing notes.

 

No, that is not what I'm saying.

No, that is not what I'm saying and have no idea where you come up with this "you can't disconnect something in advance of its connection" thing. Adam and Eve where connected and then disconnected, so what in the world are you talking about? How did they disconnect before they were connected?

When did I say that you said it's not found in nature and as for your examples, can you point us to something other than your word for it as proof?

Okay, lets try this one more time

Dejavu: As for me, everything that has ever been called 'evil' I have only ever found to be ill. Nature is neither good nor evil.

OWB: Why, to you, does mankind seem to be prone to this "illness".

Dejavu: Because humanity is capable of destroying itself, which does not mean it has to.

OWB: How does this answer the question; why, to you, does mankind seem to be prone to this "illness".

Now please, if you will, explain how your saying; "Because humanity is capable of destroying itself, which does not mean it has to." answers the question; "why, to you, does mankind seem to be prone to this "illness"?

So are saying you normally reconnect your own power after a storm has disconnected you?

Thanks I appreciate the sentiment but that's a little like saying saying you'll save me by stopping a freight train by standing on the tracks and pretending it doesn't exist, please forgive me for not having a lot of trust in your ability to do so.

What in the world are talking about? Who even implied you are a "bastard"?

Okay.
At the time of Adam and Eve, all mankind was connected with God,
Then Adam and Eve, through their actions, disconnected all of mankind from God.
Thus mankind needs to be reconnected to God.
Now you seemed to ask, wouldn't it be connected rather than reconnected and in the case of an individual who has never known the connection with God that Adam and Eve lost for mankind, that individual could be said to need to connect with God.
God has now established a way for those of mankind who want to be connected to reconnect and that is through the sacrifice of his Son, Jesus Christ.
Now what is it that seems backwards to you.

Well yes you are, very good and if this life is all there is, that is all you need and when you die we'll all wave good bye. It just depends if you want more than that or not.

 

To pay for sin? "For the wages sin pays is death" (Romans 6:23)

Sorry, didn't mean to.

Interestingly when I just quote the Bible, to remove "my interpretation" that you find so offensive, you still find offense with the writers of the Bible and then accuse me of worshiping the Bible.

So again I'm sorry that I got the impression that you only care what the Bible says if you can make it seem to agree with you and your spirit buddy.

Actually it is the fact that you disagree with those who wrote the Bible and not "my interpretation" that shows that you do not have the Holy Spirit.

I have repeatedly shown you over and over for months the scriptural basis, I've shown you supporting Scripture after Scripture something you have not even attempted to do and you talk about being held to the same standard? To be held to the same standard I would have to stop giving a Scriptural basis for what I say for months and just hope that some day you would catch up so we would be on the same footing.

Elements of his own personality? Interestingly this is the same person that immediately after being baptized was anointed with Holy Spirit making him the Christ and from heaven God said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”(Matthew 3:16-17) and later it was said of Jesus by Peter that "He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:22) Paul pointed out that Jesus was "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15) and "the reflection of [God's] glory and the exact representation of his [God's] very being". (Hebrews 1:1-4)

And now this is the one you are saying had "elements of his own personality" that tempted him. Do you really think, since Jesus is the exact representation of God, that God also has "elements of his own personality" that tempts him?

Misrepresenting? You are the one that keeps calling your spirit buddy the Holy Spirit. This spirit that keeps teaching you that the Bible was "written by men" and that what Paul, "the apostle to the nations"(Acts 9:15), wrote is just his "opinion". This spirit that teaches you that you don't really need to look to the Bible but only need to listen to it. This spirit that was sent to you at your request to god for it, yet you can't say who this god was that sent this spirit to you. You may say there is only one god but Jesus says that there many who are called god and the Bible supports this in indicating that people worship and call their god those that are not Almighty God, Jehovah. (John 10:34-36)(Deuteronomy 12:2-3)(Deuteronomy 12:30-31)

 

Your claim is that ransom sacrifice was required for our redemption from sin. Ransom is payment.

No, you mean to discredit and you do so only by misrepresenting.

I do not find offense in the writers of the bible. I find intent and meaning in the writers of the bible. I find offensive the misappropriation of that meaning or intent, meaning and intent given to all, not just to you.
Your idolatry comes in devoting yourself to properties the bible does not have, an inappropriate level of devotion.

 

Paul wrote: "I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway" (I Cor. 9:27); "In my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, that is the Church." (Col 1:24)

Although likely specifically referring to fasting, is that not merely just another form of mortification?

From Bl. Pope John Paul II:
"Christ did not conceal from his listeners the need for suffering. He said very clearly: "If any man would come after me... let him take up his cross daily, and before his disciples he placed demands of a moral nature that can only be fulfilled on condition that they should "deny themselves". The way that leads to the Kingdom of heaven is "hard and narrow", and Christ contrasts it to the "wide and easy" way that "leads to destruction." Christ does not explain in the abstract the reasons for suffering, but he states: "Follow me!". Come! Take part through your suffering in this work of saving the world, a salvation achieved through my suffering! Through my Cross. Gradually, as the individual takes up his cross, spiritually uniting himself to the Cross of Christ, the salvific meaning of suffering is revealed before him. ...It is then that man finds in his suffering interior peace and even spiritual joy."

I listen, but know just about everything they say is hooey.

My particular circular reasoning favourite is Hank Hanegraaff. Sometimes he has some good stuff to say about the non "Left Behind" style End times scenario. I strongly disagree though what he considers essential and non-essential Christian doctrine, and by what authority he can make these claims.

 

In other words, you have none.

Yes, we are created in the likeness and image of god. Our holiness embraces all that we see.

So? Jesus also said of peter he thought not with god.

And as I have pointed out paul said many things, many of which were contradictory in themselves. For instance, the invisible have no image, they are invisible.

The fact that jesus could be subject to temptation proves that he is not the "exact representation of god". God is not sent into the wilderness to be tested. Jesus went into the wilderness to master himself.

Uh, excuse me, is not paul a man?

Admittedly and in large part. Non of his theology is required for salvation but makes for good attraction. Paul was political in his approach and attempted to marry or transcend competing interests. He has an argument with peter but does not say that he won the argument and further he purchased the right to authority by collecting money for the church in jerusalem. Paul was then and will continue to be controversial because he gave teaching that was beyond what christ had taught. It is documented by paul himself that his authority had been challenged. Jesus did not teach pauls scriptures because pauls scriptures did not exist when jesus taught.

Again you misrepresent me. I told you precisely the name of the god I asked as god taught me to say it.

So in other words, not the true god. If not true then false. What is false by definition is not true and therefore does not exist.

 

OWB:

Ok.

: D

I'm saying man and woman can't disconnect their descendants before having them of course. lol

You didn't, you corrected yourself asking me where, "other than mankind", genocide is found in nature.

I'm not trying to prove it! Get it?! lol I spoke only of similarities.

I'm not saying it does to you, but to me. I am not trying to excuse "evil" by calling it sickness, what do you mean to do by calling it evil? The fear of death causes us to mistake much possibility for life.

All I'm saying is I wouldn't wait for God to do it! That'd take forever! : D

It's not the thought that counts? Anyway, if Jesus can save you, then I hope you are saved if that's what you want.

lol A joke OWB. I'm an atheist, remember?! I may not be religious, but I believe in life and love!

Jesus died a long time ago. Wouldn't the belief he loved you serve just as well as believing he died for you in terms of 'connection'?

Want more than to die? You should concentrate on saving your own soul OWB!

Go beyond good and evil, to love!

 

Why do you misrepresent me? Do you mean to discredit and you do so only by misrepresenting?

You discredit yourself, by denying what Paul wrote under inspiration.

You seem to find offense with Paul or at least are saying that what he wrote deviates from the teachings of the Christ.

 

That's why I said; "I also believe that those who chasten the actual flesh have misunderstand what the Bible says on the subject."

When looking at 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 it says; "Do YOU not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that YOU may attain it. Moreover, every man taking part in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Now they, of course, do it that they may get a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible one. Therefore, the way I am running is not uncertainly; the way I am directing my blows is so as not to be striking the air; but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow." and so, unless Paul was talking about taking up jogging as well, it seems that Paul is using illustration to encourage us to put up the hard fight for the faith and not talking about self-flagellation or mortification of the flesh. (Jude 3; 1 Timothy 6:12)

And looking at Col 1:24 where Paul said; "I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for YOU, and I, in my turn, am filling up what is lacking of the tribulations of the Christ in my flesh on behalf of his body, which is the congregation.", to me it seems he is referring to something like he said at 2 Cor 11:23-27; "Are they ministers of Christ? I reply like a madman, I am more outstandingly one: in labors more plentifully, in prisons more plentifully, in blows to an excess, in near-deaths often. By Jews I five times received forty strokes less one, three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I experienced shipwreck, a night and a day I have spent in the deep; in journeys often, in dangers from rivers, in dangers from highwaymen, in dangers from [my own] race, in dangers from the nations, in dangers in the city, in dangers in the wilderness, in dangers at sea, in dangers among false brothers, in labor and toil, in sleepless nights often, in hunger and thirst, in abstinence from food many times, in cold and nakedness." And it would seem to me that someone who had gone through all this would hardly need to spend a lot of time thinking about self-flagellation or mortification of the flesh.

As for suffering, I believe that the Scriptures talk of us enduring the suffering that is common to those follow the Christ's footsteps but do ask us to add self-inflected suffering to it.

 

Why? That is what happened, so it would be nice to know why you think it can't happen.

What? I didn't "correct" myself, I merely asked a question.

Okay, then what is your point? Similarities are almost meaningless, especially since you haven't provided any examples of what in the world you are talking about.

And that is why I asked you to explain.

Since you don't believe in evil, why would you?

I mean it is something morally wrong, bad or wicked to an extreme. Like I said, genocide is evil.

What are you talking about? These unexplained "platitudes" are meaningless, "mistake much possibility for life", what is that even suppose to mean?

Another flip answer without your even seeming to try and understand what is being said.

Since you have neither the tools or the ability to reconnect with God, no matter how long it would take, you would have to wait for God.

I said; "I appreciate the sentiment" but your thinking that Satan doesn't exist is not in anyway helpful in dealing with Satan.

Implying that someone (me) called you a "bastard" is not very funny. And imagine you, an atheist, in a thread for Christians only.

I believe Jesus loved me and it serves me well but he also died for us and that serves mankind as well.

For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for the sake of me and the good news will save it. (Mark 8:35)

maybe you should try it sometime.

 

You don't believe christs "ransom sacrifice" was required for your redemption from sin?

Credit is something given you by someone else, or that you give someone else. My reputation is varied according to who you talk to. The gift you give your brother is the gift you give to yourself.

I am not saying it deviates, I am saying it is not the teaching of christ. It is not the same teaching. It is the teaching of paul, useful for the purposes of the holy spirit. At that time it was useful for the transcendence of sectarian division. Now, in this time, perhaps the holy spirits teaching is after the same effect, at least that is how the holy spirit explains it to me, to remove the barriers we have erected against the perception of love , or the sign of god . The perception of love, being equal to the sign of god, if god is love.

 

Ahh, but it is perfectly meaningful to comprehend that "satan" is a quality of self. If satan is outside of and conceivably more powerful than you then you have no hope of contention. It is up to the gods to decide your fate.

This is sooo rich. You implied that I insulted your mother, in a for christians only forum.

Is jesus dead then? If not you should tell him to have the common courtesy to stay dead for the sake of mankind!

Interesting that the greek word means either life or soul but the english words, life and soul do not carry the same connotation. I have always had a translation that said life.

 

OWB:

Because you have to have kids to be able to disown them! lol

Stop being so paranoid OWB! I was saying if you believe satan is trying to get you then I'd try and help you even though I don't believe it. You replied saying you didn't think I could help. My joke was lost on you because you think God is father even to atheists? Whatever, your point is noted - I am in a thread supposed to be for "christians only".

I here take leave of the christianity forum! All the best, and Merry Christmas!

:sunny:

 

Ah but that was not the question was it?

Nice shuck and jive but doesn't change the fact that what you say about Paul reflects on you and whether people should believe what you say.

That then means that what you say is not a teaching of Christ either.

 

Sorry, I haven't been checking in on this thread much. When I did, I wanted to think more about what you said to give a clearer response.

The main verses I was thinking of was the ones OWB brought up and what Paul had said in Galatians 5:19-24

"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

I have read in this thread that talks of this topic that the flesh does not actually mean the body. When I looked in a lexicon it does seem to be referring to the actual body but at the same time the body is not always thought of as negative.

As for sex, no, I don't believe sex is at all wrong if in a setting pleasing to God. Those desires I believe come from the spirit aiding the body in the right direction where sex would be used as God designed it.

To talk more about the body and if it should be trusted, if it should be trusted then why is it that we need to die to it, even if to just the desires of it (Romans 8:13)? And if this is what God meant for us to live in forever then why are there desires within the flesh? The reason I come to question is that when I read the Bible it sounds as though creation and our bodies have been corrupted and need repairing (Romans 8:22, Gen 3:13). When Adam and Eve were in the garden they could have done no wrong. The world God had made for them was perfect. The only bad they could have done was take of the fruit. They had nothing else in them that required self-control.

Why would we need to be guided and transformed?

When Jesus was in the flesh, he was tempted in the flesh. My question to that is would he have ever been tempted in his original state?

How could anything that comes from God tempt us to do bad?

 

Meaningful to Satan, he wants people to think he is just a "quality of self". As usual you do his work for him, just like you tell his lies.

That is why we are to put on the complete suit of armor from God that we may be able to stand firm against the machinations of the Devil.

It is you that worships gods, I worship almighty God Jehovah.

I didn't imply it, you insulted my mother, so Christian of you to bring it up again.

No Jesus is not dead now and does not need to " stay dead" for his death to be of value.

Actually the Greek word is from a root meaning to breathe and thus denotes a breather or something that is alive.

 

Disown them? What in the world are you talking about?

The old joke is you are not paranoid, if someone is really out to get you.

And I said thanks for the sentiment but there is more to heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy

I replied by saying you are incapable of helping.

If it makes you feel better to think so.

yes you are.

Thanks but I don't celebrate the pagan holiday of Christmas.