Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

I'LL TELL YOU WHY?!... (I)

IT JUST MIGHT HELP YOU!


I'll tell you why I do not believe Jesus died for the sins of mankind. According to Timothy 3:16, "God was manifest in the flesh". Now, this was BEFORE the "trinity" was invented by the council of Nicaea (325 "A.D."), and the author means that Jesus was "God in the flesh", not just "part" of God, but all of God! Since God is the father of mankind, when He died for His children's sins, He was violating and contradicting His very own words as recorded in Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall NOT be put to death for the children, nor the children for the fathers! Everyone shall be put to death for his own sin!" I'm 100% certain that this is the word of YHVH God! I'm not sure at all about Timothy 3:16! But you must admit that God cannot violate His own express commands! Some may claim that Timothy 3:16 isn't to be taken literally, but if this isn't literally true, the entire edifice of the "New Testament" collapses, and along with it, Christian doctrine, which claims to be based on the literal truth of the "divine" Gospel!

Since I'm at it, I'll tell you why it's impossible for "God" to become "man". "To become" means just that! It doesn't mean "to pose as", or "to come disguised as". To say God became man means that He stopped being the perfect, all-wise, almighty Creator and became an imperfect, simple weak creature! The Church calls this "a mystery", but had it ever happened, it would be a tragedy! Having once become finite, limited in power and wisdom, frail and human, God would have been doomed to remain that way, for lack of ability to change back into the perfect, almighty being He once was. Just as imperfect foolish man can never, never become Almighty God (though so many have tried throughout the ages!), God will never, become man, and never has.

All this leads me to the inevitable statement: God cannot die! YHVH swears to it Himself: "For I lift up my hand to heaven and say, as I live forever!" Deuteronomy 32:40. "Have you not known? Have you not heard that the EVERLASTING GOD YHVH, the Creator of the ends of the earth, faints not nor is He weary!?" Isaiah 40:25. Now maybe the "god manifested in the flesh" of the New Testament died, but the true only Creator YHVH, never dies! He lives forever, He's everlasting! According to the New Testament, God was dead and buried for over a day! Now if the only God had really died, He would have had to stay that way! There just wasn't any other God around to "resurrect" Him! He was the ONLY God! And who was ruling and managing the universe while He was dead? Existence, all existence would have ceased immediately, had God been killed on Calvary, since everything exists by His Will alone!

All of this PROVES that the "God in the flesh" of the New Testament was NOT the True Almighty Creator, YHVH, AT ALL, but only another god of that category of gods described so strikingly by Jeremiah (chap. 10:11):

Thus shall you say to them: the gods that have NOT made the heavens and the earth, THESE shall PERISH from the earth and from under the heavens!" - "Shall a man make himself gods that are really no-gods?" (ibid 16:20).

OH YHVH, my strength and my stronghold, and my refuge in the day of trouble, UNTO YOU shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and shall say: 'Our fathers have inherited nothing but LIES, vanity and things wherein there is NO benefit!' (Jeremiah 16:19). "For I am God, and NOT MAN!" Hosea 11:9. So, dear friend, leave those other gods, the three headed ones, the man- gods who die and perish. Come to YHVH, the ONE and ONLY, the EVERLASTING, the ONLY SAVIOUR, TODAY, AND LIVE, YOU AND YOUR SEED!


I'LL TELL YOU WHY!! (II)

I'll tell you why I do not believe Jesus died for my sins! First of all, human beings were not acceptable sin-offerings, according to the Mosaic Law. In order to have an acceptable sacrifice, "god the son", (the second person of Christianity's triune deity!) would have had to be "incarnated" into the body of a goat, calf or bull! He would have to have his throat cut by the priest; his blood sprinkled on the temple altar; and his kidneys, fat, and part of his liver burnt on that same altar etc., as designated by Moses' Law! Moreover, the animal to be sacrificed had to be physically perfect and without blemish! An animal whose penis was defective, as the result of having its tip peeled off (as was the case with Jesus, and every other circumcised mali) would be blemished and unacceptable, according to the Law! Since, according to Christian mythology, Jesus came specifically to fulfill the Law's demands for a perfect sin-offering, he was obviously a complete failure! Not ONE of the Law's conditions was met by Jesus! He was an unacceptable sacrifice, and his followers are still sin-laden, miserable creatures!


Another reason I do not believe Jesus died for me is, that, according to Hebrew Scriptures, NOBODY can die for someone else's sins! Moses, the greatest Israelite that ever lived, offered himself to YHVH as a sin- offering after Israel had sinned by making a golden calf. He asked YHVH to take his life, and forgive the sin of Israel. YHVH'S reply was a FLAT REFUSAL, followed by a statement of DIVINE POLICY; "Whoever sins against Me, him (only) will I blot out of my book!" Exodus 32;33. The sinner himself is guilty! NOBODY can take the rap for him! (Not even "god the son"!). This says THE LAW! And Jesus supposedly cam to "fulfill" the Law, not destroy the Law! (Matthew 5:17-19).

Yet another reason I do not believe Jesus died for me is, that he was guilty of death HIMSELF, according to THE LAW! "When a prophet speaks in the name of YHVH, if the thing follows not, nor comes to pass, that is the thing which YHVH has NOT spoken! The prophet has spoken it presumptuously! You shall NOT FEAR HIM! DEUTERONOMY 18:20-22. Jesus prophesied: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his "father", with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily, I say to you, THERE ARE SOME STANDING HERE (Jesus' listeners!) which shall NOT TASTE OF DEATH till they see the son of man (Jesus) coming in his kingdom!" Matthew 16:27-28. Jesus prophesied his immediate, triumphant return over 1900 years ago! The prophecy never materialized, NEVER came to pass!! Thus, Jesus was a FALSE PROPHET, and GUILTY OF DEATH, according to the law! (Deuteronomy 18:20). He died for HIS sins, NOT OURS!

According to Christian mythology, Jesus was really Almighty Creator become flesh. (Timothy 3:16). However, YHVH the Creator plainly states: "I, YHVH, CHANGE NOT!!" (Malachi 2:6). Now, when an almighty, all knowing, all powerful being CHANGES into a frail, putrid man, that certainly is a RADICAL CHANGE! YHVH, the True Creator plainly states "I live FOREVER!" (Deuteronomy, 32:40). YHVH is EVERLASTING! (Isaiah 40:28.) Yet, according to the New Testament legend, the Christian god died, and was buried for over a day! (from Friday afternoon through Saturday night.)

Christianity claims that its god died for you and me. YHVH, the ONLY TRUE DEITY, CREATOR of HEAVEN and EARTH, states that He dies NOT, HE LIVES FOREVER, and that each individual is responsible for, and must pay for his own sins. However, the way of repentance is open to all:

"Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he committed and DOES that which is LAWFUL and RIGHT, (GOOD WORKS!), HE SHALL SAVE HIS SOUL ALIVE!..... He shall SURELY LIVE, HE SHALL NOT DIE!!" Ezekiel 18:27-28.

Yes, dear reader, NO NEED for dying god-men! NO NEED for a god to be murdered on a pagan Roman cross!! The Way of YHVH is open to ALL! Come to YHVH, TODAY! Submitted by: Mordecai Alfandari


http://www.light-of-israel.org/

 

rules of sacrifice in Judaism

1. Requires that a sacrificial ritual be administered by a Priest (see Leviticus Chapters 1-7). According to the accounts in the New Testament (NT), Jesus was crucified by Roman soldiers (Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:33; John 19:18, 23).

2. Requires that the blood of the (sin) sacrifice had to be sprinkled by the Priest on the veil of the sanctuary and on the altar in the Temple (e.g., Leviticus 4: 5-6). New Testament evidence clearly shows this was not done.

3. Requires that the (sin) sacrifice be without any physical defect or blemish (e.g., Leviticus 4:3). According to the various accounts in the NT, Jesus was beaten, whipped, and dragged on the ground before being crucified (Matthew 26:67, 27:26, 30-31; Mark 14: 65, 15:15-20; Luke 22: 63; John 18:22, 19:1, 3). Moreover, as a Jew by birth, Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day after being born, a ritual that leaves a scar ("sign of the covenant"). According to the NT, circumcision is tantamount to mutilation (Philippians 3:2, Galatians 5:12).

4. Requires that the Passover (sin) sacrifice, a male-goat, be offered on an individual (per household) basis (Numbers 28:22), not as a communal offering. According to the NT, Jesus’ death (termed a “sin sacrifice”) expiated the sins of mankind (Romans 6:10; Hebrews 9:12, 10:10, 10:18).

5. Directs that the Paschal Lamb was NOT to be offered for the removal of sins. It was a commemorative/festive offering (see also under items 4 above and 6 below). A more appropriate time for a sin offering would have been on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement; Numbers 29:11 [individual sin-offering―male goat]; Leviticus16:15 [communal sin-offering―male goat]).

6. Requires sacrificed Paschal Lamb to be roasted and eaten, and it’s blood used to place markings on the side-posts and lintel of the doors (Exodus 12: 7-8). There is no record in the NT that this was done (lest it be suggested that Christianity promotes cannibalism).

7. States that the sacrificial sin offering could only atone for UNINTENTIONAL sins, with few notable exceptions as stated in Leviticus 5:1-6, 20-26 [Leviticus6:1-7 in Christian Bibles]; [e.g., Num 15:27-31] .

8. Teaches that sacrifices can only atone for sins committed PRIOR to the offering of the sacrifice. No sacrifice could ever atone for sins committed AFTER the sacrifice was offered. Thus, no sacrifice could ever atone for people born after the sacrifice was offered.

9. Strictly FORBIDS human vicarious atonement (e.g., Exodus 32:31-33; Numbers 35:33; Deuteronomy 24:16; II Kings 14:6; Jeremiah 31:29 [30 in a Christian Bible]; Ezekiel 18:4,20; Psalms 49:7).

10. Strictly PROHIBITS human sacrifices (e.g., Leviticus18:21, 24-25; Deuteronomy 18:10; Jeremiah 7:31, 19: 5; Ezekiel 23:37, 39).

 

REASONS WHY NO HONEST JEW CAN BECOME A CHRISTIAN 1
​

Michael Boaz Israel ben-Abraham
​

There are nine positive commands that a Jew must break and deny, before ever he can become a Christian.

1st. He must deny the Unity of God, and support a Trinity of Persons, which is Idolatry, (see Deuteronomy 4:16,) and take the name of a man (a "male") as a God, into his mouth.

2d. He must deny the Seventh Day Sabbath, which is the Seventh "Spirit of God," or the Seventh Spirit of his Existence, which is Rest, and keep the ROMAN SUNDAY.

3d. He must deny C i r c u m c i s i o n, which is a positive command of God, never to be abrogated or gainsaid by any inferior testimony: Excision is the penalty. See Genesis. 17:10, 13, and 14.

4th. He must deny and cease to keep the Four Annual Feasts, which were to be "kept forever throughout their generations."

5th. He must deny the whole Law 2 of God, as being "Abrogated," "dead," and "Married to another," (see Romans 7:4,) and "Finished," and not merely succeeded, but superseded by a Gospel (so called,) and thus destroy all that preserves the existence 3 of the moral character of God, or his Attributes, which is the same thing. And who cannot see, if we destroy the Law, the Gospel (so called) has no foundation whatever?

6th."He must lose sight and deny the Supremacy and Pre-Eminence of Israel as a Nation, and "Kingdom of Priests," (Exodus 19:6,) over the whole world, also Esau's selling his "Birthright" to Jacob, which included also his "Blessing," of being "Lord over him" and the whole visible creation. Genesis 27:29.

7th. He must deny God's positive command, "That Israel shall dwell alone," (Deuteronomy 33:28, and Numbers 23:9,) "and not be reckoned among the nations;" and by mingling himself amongst the Gentiles, loses his own Identity, and if he have any children, they must be neither Jew nor Ashdod. Nehemiah 13:24.

8th. He must deny any difference between "Clean and Unclean," "Sacred and Profane," which God positively commands in his Law. See Leviticus 11.

9th. He uses "Blood," "Things Strangled" and "Offered to Idols," even to Three 4 DISTINCT PERSONALITIES, which is Spiritual "Fornication and Idolatry," (see Deuteronomy 4:16,) and whenever he eats anything blessed in any other name than the "name of the only one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob," he sacrifices unto a "Strange God;" besides he denies and destroys, as far as he can go, the design God has in keeping the distinctness and Identity of that People upon whom alone "he has named" and placed his Great Incommunicable and Ineffable NAME, as the alone medium of Blessing the whole world.



Footnote:

1. The Key of David, Michael Boaz Israel ben-Abraham (Warder Cresson 1799-1860), Philadelphia, 1852

2 God exists morally or Spiritually, and the strength of his Existence depends alone upon the Law of his Constitution.

3 Man exists physically, and the strength of his Existence depends alone upon the Laws of his Constitution.

4 Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

 

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/02-09/angel.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/03-10/yshua.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/05-07/atonement.htm

 

I think we're having the discussion about Jews for Jesus and why an organization owned and paid for by a Christian group is not Jewish in another thread.

And I don't follow the teachings of Jesus for a very simple reason: Jesus has nothing to do with my religion. Christianity might have started as Judaism, but it is no longer. They are two separate religions.

 

[http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library...02-09/angel.htm]


an angel is an angel, G-d is G-d, Man is Man


G-d has no form

G-d is not a man. Missionaries say that the “son” aspect of their tri-partite god was the person Jesus. (Sometimes they even seem to say the other two aspects were also human, but that's another story.) They emphasize that they believe G-d became man, not that a man became G-d. Mormons go so far as to claim that G-d was once a man! The Tanakh makes no such distinction. The Tanakh says simply that G-d is not a man.

o Numbers 23:19, King James Version (KJV),1 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? .

o Missionaries claim the verse should read "G-d is not a man who lies..." This is not what the Hebrew texts says, or even how the KJV translates it.

o Hosea 11:9 ...I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee….

o I Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. .

o Psalm 146:2-3 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. .

Jesus is frequently referred to as the "son of man.” .

o The Hebrew phrase "ben adam" (literally "son of man") in a poetic way of saying "person.”

o Job 9:32-33 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman ("mediator" in the New KJV) betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

o Note that Job 9:3 also contradicts the missionary idea that someone must mediate between people and G-d.

o The same idea is expressed in a different way in Deuteronomy Chapter 4. The text is explicit ― you saw no image at Horeb, ― so don't try to make a representation of G-d.

o Deut 4: 15-19 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

o Note that Deut 4:19 also contradicts the missionary idea that G-d will condemn those who worship incorrectly.

o Missionaries sometimes say that G-d has changed since those words were written. They assert that now G-d is indeed human, and if Jews don't believe it, we will be consumed in the fires of hell. However, the Bible says that G-d does not change and we will not be consumed.

o Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.




[http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library...03-10/yshua.htm]

Yeshua is aramiac form of Joshua


[http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library...7/atonement.htm]


· Exodus 30.12 - Charity can provide atonement for the soul.

· Exodus 30.15-16 - Money can make atonement for the soul.

· Leviticus 5.11-13 - Flour can make atonement for the soul.

· Numbers 14.19-20 - Prayer can make atonement for the soul.

· Numbers 31.50 - Jewelry can make atonement for the soul.

· Isaiah 27.9 - Breaking alters to idolatry can make atonement.

· Jeremiah 36.3 - Turning from evil can make atonement for the soul.

· Hosea 6.6 - Obedience can make atonement for the soul.



rules of sacrifice

1. Requires that a sacrificial ritual be administered by a Priest (see Leviticus Chapters 1-7). According to the accounts in the New Testament (NT), Jesus was crucified by Roman soldiers (Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:33; John 19:18, 23).

2. Requires that the blood of the (sin) sacrifice had to be sprinkled by the Priest on the veil of the sanctuary and on the altar in the Temple (e.g., Leviticus 4: 5-6). New Testament evidence clearly shows this was not done.

3. Requires that the (sin) sacrifice be without any physical defect or blemish (e.g., Leviticus 4:3). According to the various accounts in the NT, Jesus was beaten, whipped, and dragged on the ground before being crucified (Matthew 26:67, 27:26, 30-31; Mark 14: 65, 15:15-20; Luke 22: 63; John 18:22, 19:1, 3). Moreover, as a Jew by birth, Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day after being born, a ritual that leaves a scar ("sign of the covenant"). According to the NT, circumcision is tantamount to mutilation (Philippians 3:2, Galatians 5:12).

4. Requires that the Passover (sin) sacrifice, a male-goat, be offered on an individual (per household) basis (Numbers 28:22), not as a communal offering. According to the NT, Jesus’ death (termed a “sin sacrifice”) expiated the sins of mankind (Romans 6:10; Hebrews 9:12, 10:10, 10:18).

5. Directs that the Paschal Lamb was NOT to be offered for the removal of sins. It was a commemorative/festive offering (see also under items 4 above and 6 below). A more appropriate time for a sin offering would have been on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement; Numbers 29:11 [individual sin-offering―male goat]; Leviticus16:15 [communal sin-offering―male goat]).

6. Requires sacrificed Paschal Lamb to be roasted and eaten, and it’s blood used to place markings on the side-posts and lintel of the doors (Exodus 12: 7-8). There is no record in the NT that this was done (lest it be suggested that Christianity promotes cannibalism).

7. States that the sacrificial sin offering could only atone for UNINTENTIONAL sins, with few notable exceptions as stated in Leviticus 5:1-6, 20-26 [Leviticus6:1-7 in Christian Bibles]; [e.g., Num 15:27-31] .

8. Teaches that sacrifices can only atone for sins committed PRIOR to the offering of the sacrifice. No sacrifice could ever atone for sins committed AFTER the sacrifice was offered. Thus, no sacrifice could ever atone for people born after the sacrifice was offered.

9. Strictly FORBIDS human vicarious atonement (e.g., Exodus 32:31-33; Numbers 35:33; Deuteronomy 24:16; II Kings 14:6; Jeremiah 31:29 [30 in a Christian Bible]; Ezekiel 18:4,20; Psalms 49:7).

10. Strictly PROHIBITS human sacrifices (e.g., Leviticus18:21, 24-25; Deuteronomy 18:10; Jeremiah 7:31, 19: 5; Ezekiel 23:37, 39).

BLOOD SACRIFICE IS NOT ESSENTIAL FOR FORGIVENESS
​

Zvi Zaks
​

Missionaries say that G-d must have blood in order to forgive sins. I have even heard them make the blasphemous sounding statement that G-d is incapable, does not have the ability, to forgive without bloodshed. Such an idea is primitive and barbaric, but that is not the point. The point is that the Tanakh does not agree. According to Tanakh, there are several acceptable means for repentance.

· Leviticus 5 11 (KJV) But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering.

· Isaiah Chapter 1:11 (KJV) To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Micah Chapter 6 is particularly explicit as to what G-d wants:

· (KJV) 6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

o Missionaries sometimes say this means Jesus. But that it not what the text says.

Hosea Chapter 14 waxes poetic and describes words (of repentance) as if they were the animal sacrifices ("calves of our lips"):

· (KJV) 1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. 2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

The Psalmist expresses the same idea.

· Psalms 40 (KJV) 6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

· Psalms 50 (KJV) 7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy God. 8 I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me. 9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds. 10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. 11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine. 12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. 13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? 14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High: 15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.

Money (Exodus 30:15-16), jewelry (Numbers 31:50) or putting fire from the altar in a censure (Numbers 17:11) are also listed as means to forgiveness.

Hosea is specific that animal sacrifices will stop for a temporary period (as opposed to being stopped forever and replaced by something else.)

· Hosea Chapter 3: 4 (KJV). For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: 5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Here is the list of the verses for easy copy and paste in chatrooms:

· Lev 5:11; Is 1:11; Micah 6:6-8; Hosea 3:4-5; Hosea 14:2; Ps 40:6; Ps 50:7-15; Ex 30:15-16; Num 17:11; Num 31:50



SOURCE:



Zvika Zaks, Copyright 2001: fiddlerzvi@att.net { http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/ ]

 

Just to interject something as a neutral obsever---


1) You are assuming you can comprehend G-d's actions and will
2) You are assuming you can comprehend G-d's form/forms
3) There is a difference between the flesh dying
and the spirit dying.

 

no i am talking about the laws of Judaism

 

It's not comprehending who g-d is, or what g-d does, it's just that there is positive proof of g-d not being certain things, and there is certain proof, should you read the texts and accept them, that g-d cannot be man..I would agree with you that we can't understand some things, but we do have guides..

-DISARM not atropine...too lazy to sign in..sorry.

 

That's just it, believing G-d is omni-potent automatically implies there is no "cannot", regardless of what language or logic says; bit of a mindfuck, but that's the way it is. You can't be all powerful and have restrictions, just doesn't make sense.

 

Becoming limited to time or space is a limitation. Therefore God cannot be limited to time and space. God does not need to be raised as a baby and have his mommy wipe his bum after he soils himself, or to be taught the aleph-bet. There are limitations. They're just two ways of looking at the issue.

Dauer

 

Here's some light reading: http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm!

 

Huck,

I just skimmed over it. Shabbos is soon and so I don't have time to look at the whole thing. Basically, it looks like a very biased and one-sided interpretation of texts and History. To each their own I guess.

Dauer

 

Huck you man/god is dead he never gather the exiles, establish world peace and he encourage people to abandon the Torah

 

It applaud how well you have thought through
your faith particularly in regards to Christianity.

I did have a few problems with your posts..
To say that the Trinity was invented at the Council
of Nicaea is simply false. That is like saying that
modern Western Science invented gravity, which
is obviously not the case; it has always existed but simply
lacked a clear simplified definition.

But I understand that because you do not believe in the Trinity
you thus cannot believe in Christianity.

Secondly, you seem to discredit Christianity by listing rules;
the two cannot coincide and thus Christianity must be false. In doing so you are missing the point. Jesus came to bring the New Covenant; God never intended our life to revolve around endless traditions, customs, and
rules. We as humans chose the wrong path and thus it became that
way. When Jesus came, many Jews did the same thing you are
doing now: "How dare you heal on the sabbath", Why do you eat
with blatant sinners", "Why do you not wash your hands before your
eat". Increasingly, their religion centered on countless rules, and the
self, and not on God.

If you truly want to understand Chrsitianity, I urge you to read "Mere
Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. I hope that I have been respectful to your beliefs.

One last thought, this really applies to any situation in life: Don't let
yourself be defined by your context, your upbringing, your neighborhood,
your schooling. I hate how we are defined by outside sources.

Take Care

 

Then can you show us the complicated definition that did exist?

These postings have really been in response to Huck Finn, who has claimed that it is Jewish to believe in Jesus and a Jew who believes in Jesus is a "completed Jew." At least I personally have nothing against Christianity, unless it is trying to force itself onto other people.

No. You are missing the point. The Torah makes it clear that anyone who comes and says such as he does is a false prophet, a dreamer of dreams, and has been sent by God to tempt the people of Israel.

He also never fulfilled any of the requirements for the messiah. So on whose authority is he starting this "new covenant?" I would not come to you and ask these questions, but this issue has been brought here.

This is part of the Christian teachings about Judaism which says it is the religion of strict law, when in reality the mitzvot serve to extend holiness into all aspects of our lives, redirecting our minds back to God. In addition to that, some of the mitzvot have very special purposes, like those surrounding Shabbat, which is said to be a taste of the world-to-come.

According to who? You? Ask a religious Jew. The mitzvot bring God into all of life. You make it sound like Judaism is such a bad thing. I don't come to the Christian board and criticize Christianity for worshipping an image or in some places making small laws, like those about homosexuality, their greatest concern. Tell me, if all those laws are so unimportant why are they part of your bible?

I do understand Christianity. I understand how it views itself and I understand Christianity in contrast with the other world religions, including my own. Huck Finn did not understand the role of Christianity in the Jewish world, or the Jewish view of Judaism, which is a rich spiritual tradition. I can see that you also have a little difficulty with that last issue as well, but it seems like it's more about what you've been taught. You seem like a very reasonable person so far who understands there are always many sides to a story.

I agree with you. I hope you also take this teaching to heart. Take care.

Dauer

 

Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva....

way older.


Osiris, Isis, and the miracle child, Horus,

Of course that is more like the nativity, even the depictions of them look the same.

 

That's true. Or Dionysus, Zeus, and Semele. But that doesn't show that there was a trinity implicated in any of the NT writings which is what I am really asking for. And I'm not so sure she'd be willing to include those "pagan" gods as a statement on the origins of the trinity in Christianity. But I really don't know anything about her. Still, it would only support the arguement that it is a complete break from Jewish beliefs about God, which is what this thread is really about.

Dauer

 

It's like Jews are the object of Christianity's unrequited love.

It's always tormented the Christians that Jews could shrug off their evangelism so easily. But it really is easy when they say shit that makes no sense and shows complete ignorance of the very lines from the Old Testament which they use to support their claims.

 

I apologize for my last post; it was rather careless and sporadic. You

Are right I have no background in Judaism, nor have I studied it. Shamefully, the vast

majority of my ideas come from a cursory reading of the OT and

The Chosen by Chaim Potok. So correct me if I make any false assumptions.



I will start with the Doctrine of the Trinity, the essential core of Christianity. Is

your conspiracy theory concerning the Council of Nicaea a standard Jewish teaching

or your own conclusion? I know this theory has been recently propagated by the Da

Vinci Code, but remember, it is a work of fiction.



The Council of Nicaea convened to establish an already accepted idea of the Trinity, to,

in essence, hammer out the details. At that time the platonic influence on the Greek

Christians caused them to believe that Christ was in fact ontologically subordinate

to the Father because he became flesh. They saw all flesh as inherently evil and thus

failed to see how God could become man. The concept of the Trinity

was never in question, merely how the persons related. At the Council of Nicaea they

established that all three persons all equal merely functionally subordinate as

stated in Philippians 2.



You asked for examples in the NT. I think Matthew 3:16-17 would be the best

example, because one sees all three persons interacting at the same time. But I also

urge you to search out the OT scripture for indications: during creation, the spirit of God moving over the dark water, the angel of the Lord wrestling with Jacob....etc.



What does Jews believe concerning the nature of God? In my opinion God is love, and

love by nature must be freely given and reciprocal. Now, if God is eternal, which he must be, and existed before the dawn of man then how could this be true if he was a singular being?

One cannot love themselves. Supposing one ignores the eternal aspect of his nature, God could have a loving relationship with humanity but again that cannot be. For if God

Needed us for fulfillment than that would make him dependant on mankind.



In the Trinity God exists in a perfect loving relationship with himself, called Koinania.

He had no need for mankind but chose to create them for their own joy and his.



Secondly, I was wrong to say that your strict adherence to code and tradition

cause you to drift from God. In reality, they very likely do the opposite by keeping

you mindful of who you serve. My intent was to demonstrate the futility

of such laws and codes. Despite character, upbringing, or good intentions

we will inevitably fail in such attempts at goodness, because we are human.

It does not matter if you sin once or one thousand times, you are still

a sinner and worthy of death.



I have many things to add, but I am going to wait...

Take Care