messianic jews

I cannot answer why you needed a rabbi to get you a copy of the Talmud. Honestly, I don't know why you would want to buy volumes and volumes of books when you can buy a CD-Rom collection for less. What happened to you does not make sense to me. Look up talmud and CD. You will find it.

However, I would warn against selective reading. The talmud is a collection of many voices over many generations. But it would be wrong of me to deny you the talmud, even if you are an admitted antisemite. I would only encourage you not to jump to conclusions and rather speak with a rabbi or other learned individual about any troubling passage, as there are probably many passages relevant to that one.

Now what are you trying to say that we don't respect other faiths and beliefs? When faith is positive for someone it can be beautiful. When it is not positive for someone it can become very ugly. Sometimes it can be positive in some ways and negative in others, but a little poison can taint all of the water. This is true of all religions. Did my statement about the divinity of Jesus bother you? This is a thread in a Jewish forum on messianic Jews. I gave the Jewish view on messianic Jews and the reason for it. I could claim I was the messiah, but it wouldn't hold water and I would be a false messiah. And even if somebody did believe me, when I died they would know the truth because nothing would have been fulfilled. No peace for the world, no gathering of all of the Jewish people, etc etc. And when the messiah comes he will not be worshipped.

There is nothing hateful in being critical. And if we hate other faiths, how could I possibly allow myself to use the BDB, a Christian lexicon, own a copy of the Tao Te Ching, or try to understand the validity of the possible connections between Abraham and Brahma, Sarah and Saraisvati? My rabbi was encouraging me to read a book called The Jew in the Lotus, which itself is about a meeting between Buddhists including the Dalai Lama and a group of Jewish leaders from all denominations. This does not seem like hate. Oh, and let us not forget the Jewish groups who went down South to help repair burned churches.

Ben

 

I don't know if any of you saw this, but Warrior also denies the fact that the Holocaust happend. He calls it the "Holohaux", call the survivors liars, and calls the pictures and other evidence to be non-evidence. Go to this thread to see what I mean...

http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15784&page=1&pp=10

 

Thank you vinceneilsgirl. I saw that thread a few days ago. I'm not really concerned with whether Warrior's claims are legitimate or not. I just don't want them to be the last word in the Judaism threads. Maybe it would be easier not to answer him, but at least it allows me to show everyone else how and why his arguements are not true. Whether this is of value or not, I do not know. For now I'll just keep on keepin on.

Dauer

 

It IS of value to show others just how wrong he is. He isn't using facts or logic and is blinded by hate. When someone doesn't accept pictures of emaciated prisoners and piles of dead bodies as proof it is safe to assume that hate has made them blind.

I know some would say; "Free speech means he can say whatever he wants". But people need to realize that he isn't just spewing an opinon here, he's denying facts and using that denial to try to entice others to hate. Hate speech isn't free speech.

 

And he also said that we're liars by saying we respect other people's religions. That's bull. One person disrespecting my beliefs will never take away my respect for a whole faith. Many people disrespecting my beliefs will never take away my respect for a whole faith. Because all religions are also full of decent people just like me going about their lives, just like me. People are people, regardless of creed. Why would saying I respect them be lying? Just because they chose a path that is different than mine? Am I only allowed to respect those of my own faith? I've never read that law. And the whole "Don't give me you're holier than thou bullshit" argument is silly- one person talks rationally to him as he shouts, and that's supposed to be taken as an insult?

This is just a 12 year old trying to get attention. I highly doubt this guy believed one word of what he was saying.

 

wait...if jesus says the jews are the sons of devils, and jesus was a jew, and jesus was the son of god, does that mean god is the devil, jesus is the son of the devil, and christianity is devil-worship?

or maybe im just confused.

 

Hahaha great analogy. I agree.

 

Jesus directed this accusation at the Jewish leaders and others who refused to believe in him, not the Jewish race as a whole. His point was that being a child of God depends on faith in him, rather than blood lineage.

Those condemn Messianic Judaism as a fraud overlook the fact that Christianity began as a Jewish sect. In fact, according to the book of Acts, it was a scandalous idea at the time that Gentiles could become Christians!

 

Judaism is not a race. Never was. I like to think of us as a God-focused people. And all Jews refuse to believe in Jesus. Those who do not render become kareit, cut off. Of course because of the nature of Judaism they can do teshuva, returning or repentance, and come back to the fold.

According to Judaism anyone can be in right with God, Jew or gentile. It's determined by right-action, which for gentiles is defined by the 7 laws of Noah. But basically we believe that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world-to-come. In addition to that, anyone can become a Jew. There's even a book dedicated to a convert: Ruth. Conversion is sometimes discouraged because it's easier to be a good gentile than a good Jew. Jews have more expected of them.

Yes, originally Christianity was something Jewish. But like all Jews know, the messiah is only a person, and if he dies and all of the messianic prophesies have not been fulfilled, he's not the messiah. Paul's work among the Romans however, was much more successful. That's where you get pagan myth like that of the dying god introduced into the system.

The problem with messianics is that they're trying to practice the way Jesus would have, or even to have Jewish beliefs, which would mean accepting Jesus is not in any way divine. It wouldn't be so horrible if they said he was the messiah -- in the Jewish sense -- because then they'd just be wrong. But they're taking modern Judaism, meaning practices that have evolved over time and modern customs, and mixing in entirely Christian doctrine, even changing the reasons for what's being done. The goal of some of these groups, like Jews4Jesus, is entirely missionary. So no, I do not approve. And yes, messianic Judaism is a complete fraud. I make no apologies for my views.

Of course it was! Why would the Jews want Christians bringing more and more people into their heresy?

I don't have a problem with Christianity and I don't want to give that impression. I do have a problem with Christians putting on talis and tefillin, davening to a three-person godhead, one of whom was supposedly once mortal, and calling it Judaism, all the while calling Jews who join them "complete" Jews.



Not right.

Dauer

 

This point had obviously been lost on a number of Jewish leaders in Jesus' time.

It's pretty sad that Judaism has come to be defined by rejecting Jesus as Messiah. Are Jewish atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. judged as harshly as Messianic Jews? To my knowledge, all can easily become Israeli citizens except Messianic Jews or Semitic Muslims, i.e. Palestinians.

So you believe that salvation can be earned by good works? What was the purpose of the Levitical priesthood, and why are sacrifices no longer necessary?

If the Messiah was only human, how do you explain prophecies that identify him with God, such as Is. 9:6 and Zech. 12:10, or the fact that David addressed him as "lord" in Ps. 110? Moreover, if the Messiah was not to die, what do you do with Ps. 22, Is. 53, Zech. 12:10, and Dan. 9:26? Also, how could a mere man bring about prophecied world peace, and how would he remove the sins of God's people, as taught in Zech. 3?

Of course, the Christian answer is that the Messiah came first to reconcile people to God and that he will come again to vanquish evil and death and to judge all who refuse to be reconciled to him. Interestingly, when Jesus quoted Is. 61 in reference to himself, he stopped in mid-sentence, indicating that the "day of vengeance" was yet to come (Lk. 4:16-21).

Except that Jesus himself clearly claimed to be divine, which is why he was killed. One cannot accept his Messianic claims while rejecting his divinity.

You see no Messianic element in customs such as Passover? Do you have any theology of atonement?

Would they prefer that these Gentiles remain pagans? Actually, though, it was Messianic Jews (including the apostles themselves) who were shocked at the idea of God welcoming Gentiles without subjecting them to the Mosaic Law.

First, Jesus' deity was never mortal; rather, he took on a fully human nature while remaining fully divine. Second, Messianic prophecy is central to Jewish faith. If Jesus is the Messiah, then "complete" Jews is an apt term for those who believe in him. You might disagree with them, but it is unfair to disparage their character and motives.

 

According to what source? The gospels are mostly propaganda and polemic, and I wouldn't rely on them for accurate history anymore than I would the books of the Tanakh -- yes I am a liberal.

The problem with Jews accepting Jesus is that it is a) idolatry by suggesting God is something in physical space and b) blaspheme because of the trinity. And the problem with Messianic Judaism is that it is not a Jewish organization. It was started by fundamentalist Christians in order to gain more Jewish converts. Here's that coming from a Christian source.This is a Christian admission of the role of "messianic Judaism":

http://www.pcusa.org/ga216/business/overtures/ovt0468.htm

You choose to define Judaism as "rejecting Jesus." That is your decision. If Hindus were trying to convert Jews, I would be just as wary of their actions. Luckily, most religions don't have such universalist views that they must make everyone else like them.

The qorbanot -- qorban is the Hebrew word for sacrifice which actually means to come close or draw near as in an intimate encounter with God -- ended because the Temple was destroyed. It was only used for specific transgressions. But just as there was no need for them in Daniel's time, there's no need for them in ours. As far as textual support that we don't actually need sacrifices -- most of which had nothing to do with atonement:

if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [2 Chronicles 7:14]

But if from there you seek the Eternal your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. [Deuteronomy 4:29]

He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]

Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it. [Psalm 34:14]

The Eternal is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. [Psalm 34:18]

You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. [Psalm 51:16-17]


Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. [Psalm 40:6]

Take words with you and return to the Eternal. Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the bulls of our lips. [Hosea 14:2]

He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. [Proverbs 28:13]


Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Eternal a man avoids evil. [Proverbs 16:6]

To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the Eternal than sacrifice. [Proverbs 21:3]

For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. [Hosea 6:6]


The Eternal is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. [Psalm 34:18]


He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. [Job 33:26]


With what shall I come before the Eternal and bow down before the exalted God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the Eternal be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Eternal require of you? Only to do Justice, and to love Mercy and to walk humbly with your God. [Micah 6:6-8]

According to the Orthodox, when the Temple is rebuilt after the moshiach comes we will again have qorbanot

Is. 9:6 is a Christian mistranslation that is taken out of context. See here:

http://messiahtruth.com/isa9.html

I'm sorry. What does Zech 12:10 have to do with anything? That may be another mistranslation on the part of Christianity because I see nothing of relevance.

Lord is a pretty common word in Hebrew, and many people are called that, but for a word-by-word analysis see:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/ps110.html

Huge translational errors there. It's not messianic. It's David speaking about himself. Another link.

http://www.messiahtruth.com/psa22.html

The servant is Israel. Israel is called the servant throughout Isaiah. You can reread the whole book if you want. But if you'd like a guide to your reading:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/isa53intro.html

You said that already. I have no idea what that has to do with anything.

Dan 9 is complicated. Luckily, Rashi was a very smart man. This is the text with all of Rashi's commentary.

http://www1.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16492&showrashi=true

Now I will ask some questions. How did Moses part the sea? How did Elijah light the wood on fire? The Tanakh is filled with miracles, and none of these people had special powers. It was always God. God does not need to limit Himself to time and space in order to get things done. And if you look at Zech 3.9 it says "...I will execute its engraving -- declares the LORD of Hosts -- and I will remove the country's guilt in a single day."

It's not the moshiach who does it. It's God!

According to Judaism when the moshiach comes, if the world is all evil it will be a "difficult birth" and if the world is all good it will be an "easy birth." -- not of the moshiach but of the age that comes with him -- which is not to say the world will be all one or the other, but it will be closer to one of these extremes. Either way, eventually there will be world peace and the nations will no longer fight with each other. The Temple will be rebuilt etc. Some of it is vague. I don't have strong beliefs about the moshiach as I am very liberal. Some Jews feel we can bring the time of the moshiach closer through our actions.

Jesus contradicts himself sometimes, doesn't he?

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], G-d: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (KJV)

Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], G-d. (KJV)

The emphasis in Judaism is on right-action and not sin, but yes we do have a theology of atonement. It's based on right action, and making good on the wrongs we've done. a) what does "messianic element" have to do with "messianic Judaism?" The idea of a moshiach does appear in Judaism, just in a very different form than it does in Christianity. No, I don't see anything messianic about Pesach. and b) There's a difference between recognizing existing messianic material and saying that the afikomen represents Jesus. I suppose "next year in Jerusalem" may have originally been a messianic idea. That's not what I'm challenging. It's things like changing the meaning of the afikomen to reflect Christology that I have a problem with.

Me personally? I could care less. I think it has more to do with making Judaism profane than anything else. Luckily, the heresy broke off completely and became Rome. Actually, considering what the Church did with its power, that was probably a bad thing. Then again, if not the Christians, it could have been the followers of Mithras in power. I really don't know how History would have worked out otherwise.

Messianic Jew is a modern term. Please do not confuse it with the apostles, of whom we really have no information. Are you familiar with modern scholarship on the authors of the gospels? They were probably written after the epistles. I wouldn't call it "subjecting." That term only works if mosaic law is a bad thing. Christianity tries to make it look that way in order to justify its existence but the fact is that like many other religions in the world it is quite beautiful. It's really not about God welcoming gentiles without subjecting them to "mosaic law." It's more about a particular group deciding it's okay to call yourself Jewish without following the path of the mitzvot, actually accepting pagan rituals and mythology in its place.

It's like what's happening now with so-called "messianic Judaism."

Central? No. A part of? Sure.

What happens when the moshiach comes? Tell me how Jesus stacks up.

¥ The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with Òfear of G-dÓ. (Isaiah 11:2)
¥ Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership. (Isaiah 11:4)
¥ He will be descended from David HaMelech (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
¥ Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4).
¥ He will be a messenger of peace. (Isaiah 52:7)
¥ There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8 ).
¥ Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
¥ Knowledge of G-d will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9).
¥ The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23).
¥ All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19).
¥ Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
¥ The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11).
¥ The Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)
¥ The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55).
¥ The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos.
¥ The whole world will worship the One G-d of Israel. (Isaiah 2:17)

http://www.kosherjudaism.com/moshiach.pdf

Also, belief in the moshiach will never complete somebody. You make it much more important than it is. There is something in the Talmud that says if you are holding a sapling and someone tells you the moshiach has come, plant it first and then go find out. The most important thing to believe in is God. The messiah's just another person, maybe as righteous as Moses. Who knows?

I am not disparaging their character and motives. I am helping to show what they're really about. On J4J:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/j4jlibrary/jewsforjesus.html

General info on "messianic Judaism":

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/j4jlibrary/messianicjudaism.html

I know I've been posting a lot of links. You're mentioning a lot of things. If you mention less, I will probably discuss more in-thread.

Dauer

 

God didn't cease to be transcendent in the Incarnation. This is admittedly the most mysterious of all Christian teachings, but both the Old and New Testaments consistently affirm that nothing is impossible for God and that his ways are incomprehensible to finite man.

See:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/karoltrinity.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/01-08/jewish.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/10-08/trinity.htm

It was founded and continues to be run by Jews who believe that Jesus is their Messiah and who have a passion to share this truth with their brethren.

This looks like a repudiation of the universality of the gospel by a characteristically liberal mainline denomination.

You didn't answer my question. Are Jewish Hindus typically "cut off" from the larger Jewish community in the way that Messianic Jews are?

Only your liberalism allows you to say this. The Hebrew Scriptures are quite "intolerant" of other religions.

What about Yom Kippur, the Most Holy Place, and the scapegoat? There seems to be clear recognition that man is separated from God by sin. Even a righteous prophet like Isaiah realized this (Is. 6:1-7).

Could it be that the Jews have been "exiled" (as in Daniel's time) for their rejection of the Messiah?

Many of the passages you cite here are quoted in the New Testament, particularly the book of Hebrews. I agree that ritual sacrifices are not what ultimately matter to God, but the only reason they are no longer required is because of Jesus' perfect life and sacrifice on our behalf.

Why would such sacrifices be needed in the perfect Messianic age?

Right back at ya:
http://www.journalofbiblicalstudies.org/Issue1/Articles/linkage_between_isaiah_7.htm

See http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/Zech1210.htm.

Even if it only means "master," why would David apply it to one of his descendants? And what does it mean that the Messiah would be a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek?

Also, check out http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/01-09/son.htm.

See http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q1208/point3.html. Prophecies often have multiple layers of meaning.

It is true that Isaiah often refers to the nation of Israel as God's servant, but such a reading of Is. 53 just doesn't work. It is implausible to argue that he inexplicably switches to narrating from a Gentile perspective in v. 5-8! This is not only a Herculean leap of logic, it's a departure from historic Jewish interpretation:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/02-05/Isaiah53.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/Isaiah53.htm

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/07-09/prophetrabbis.htm

Your link conveniently ignores Is. 49:6, which clearly teaches that the mission of the servant was to restore the people of Israel, as well as the Gentiles. How could Israel restore itself?

The Anointed One is King Agrippa? That seems untenable. When did this idea originate?

So, how do you believe that God will remove the sin of his people in a single day?

How will human nature be changed in order to bring about this perfect kingdom?

Here's an excellent sermon on the parallel passage of Luke:
http://www.communityefc.org/cgi-bin/download.cgi?download=2002/CEFC_2002022400_16kbps_mono.mp3

In other words, we must atone for our own sin? I submit that this is impossible. See Ps. 32:1-5 & 130.

The symbolism of Passover is hard to miss. God executes judgment on the sins of Egypt, but he “passes over” the families of his faithful remnant based on the blood of a sacrificial lamb, though they were by no means worthy of such mercy (Dt. 9).

See http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.html.

Only a devoutly Orthodox Jew could say this with any credibility. Christians can at least explain theologically why we don’t follow Mosaic Law. Liberal Judaism has little connection to the Hebrew Scriptures.

The only charge Jesus’ enemies could make against him was to accuse him of blasphemy for claiming to be God’s Son.

He certainly challenged the corruption of the ruling authorities.

See http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/05-06/genealogy.htm.

His kingdom is not yet fully consummated on Earth.

He was.

He rules now in the hearts of his people, and he will restore perfect harmony to creation when he returns, after all people have had the opportunity to willingly become part of his kingdom.

I believe the temple, Sanhedrin, and homeland are symbolic references to his church, which the New Testament describes as “spiritual Israel.”

I really don’t care what the Talmud says. The Old Testament is essentially a messianic book, all the way back to God’s promise to Eve that her offspring would crush the serpent’s head.

For the sake of balance and fairness, here’s their side of the story:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/10-01/canitbe.htm

I’m obviously not averse to doing the same!

 

Judaism version of the Moshiach say nothing about the second coming or dwelling in people's hearts. and jewsfor jesus are a bunch of lying scumbags pretending to be jews and most of them are not jewish and don't come fom jewish families. the moshiach have only one chance

 

See http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/05-08/firstthings.htm.

What about Jer. 31:31-34, Eze. 36:25-27, or the recurring theme throughout Isaiah that he would turn the hearts of Israel (and the Gentiles) toward God?

 

it is G-d himself who going to do that Job:


Jer 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



this is not about Jesus

http://jdstone.org/cr/pages/sss_jere.html


and Why do you leave out the rest of Ezekiel 36 which is about the gathering of the exiles back to israel and turning it into a garden something which Jesus failed to do?????????????????????

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. 31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. 33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. 34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. 35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. 36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. 37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock. 38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.


and during this time the whole world will know the true creator G-d and Israel currently is in a bad shape so this has not come to past yet

 

God is still in the process of renewing hearts and drawing people to faith in Jesus. That must be completed before this present evil order is overthrown by the Messianic kingdom (Mt. 13:24-30).

 

It's not a matter of a decision Jews make. They become kareit. Yes, it applies to Jews who become Hindus too.

Not true. Judaism does not try to make other religions Jews. It cares about the way Jews treat each other and the way they treat non-Jews, but it's not interested in making other people Jewish. It makes it possible, but it's not a priority. The righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. Everybody on this planet has a reason for being, but the Jewish reason is traditionally linked to the mitzvot. You can attack my liberalism all you want, but perhaps before you do you should learn a little more about what the traditional position is. Try Jewfaq for that information.

Can you prove this using only the Tanakh, and by Tanakh I mean the Hebrew or direct translations from the Hebrew?

According to the traditional position the only qorbanot will be for unintentional things.

With Daniel. Daniel is not one of the books of the prophets in the Jewish canon. It was moved by the Church to support its aims.

Me personally? My views are in conflict with the traditional ones on the issue of the moshiach as well as a couple other things. Think for a moment though, about what you just asked. How does God accomplish anything? He is God!

You're working in the wrong direction. The idea of the paschal lamb existed first. Christianity chose to use older symbols to make a statement after. Also, there is nothing that suggests the messiah will die for our sins.

That entire statement is falacious. Liberal Judaism is not a movement. Conservative Judaism follows all of the mitzvot, it just interprets some differently than the Orthodox. The reform took a more radical stance and originally said only the moral ones stood, but then it changed its tune and is now coming back to traditional practice. If you equate liberal with secular, then you are correct because they tend not to practice much of anything, but liberal does not mean secular and all religious Jews follow the mitzvot or have a theological reason for not following some of them.

I don't need to be orthodox to criticize you for calling the mitzvot a burden or for accusing the Messianics of being a wolf in sheep's clothing. I am a returner and you have no authority to decide which Jews have credibility and which do not.

I have read that in interfaith dialogue we must not make uneducated assumptions about the other person. You seem to know nothing about Judaism. Try to ask questions instead of making assumptions.

And of being a false prophet by suggesting they worship a God different than the one they had known, which would entitle him to the death penalty, which would stand even if he gave signs. That's the first that comes to my mind.

How do you know? The Gospels are biased and do not agree with other histories.

Do you realize that probably everyone on the earth has had that opportunity and most have said, "no thank you. We're happy worshipping God in our own way."?

You're entitled to your beliefs, and I'm pleased you recognize that is all they are.

I was actually suggesting we'd get along better without it.

Dauer

 

WHERE IN THOSE SCRIPTURES I POSTED YOU SEE JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!????

Is it not I, the Lord, and there are no other gods besides Me, a just and saving God there is not besides Me. 22. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah 45:21-22)

Do not trust in princes, in the son of men, who has no salvation. (Psalms 146:3)


“God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent…” (Numbers 23:19 (Judaica Press Complete Tanakh)

the Strength of Israel will neither lie nor repent, forHe is not a man to repent." (1 Samuel 15:29)
“For He [God] is not man like me,” (Job 9:32)

“…for I am God and not a man.”(Hosea 11:9)




God’s Hebrew Bible also says that God does not change His mind:

“You have been shown, in order to know that the Lord He is God; there is none else besides Him.From the heavens, He let you hear His voice to instruct you, and upon the earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire” (Deuteronomy 4:35-36)

And you shall know this day and consider it in your heart, that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth below; there is none else. (Deuteronomy 4:39)

“For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end.” (Malachi 3:6)


God says the Jews are His son.

“My son, My firstborn is Israel..." (Exodus 4:22)

“Thus says HaShem. Israel is My son, My firstborn” (Deuteronomy 4:22)

“When Israel was I child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son” (Hosea 11:1)

”He (Solomon) shall be a son to Me [G-d], and I a Father to him” (1 Chr 22:10)

He has said to me "You (David) are My son. Today I have begotten you. (Psalm 2:7)

And God repeated “I, too, will make him (David) a firstborn, supreme over the earth’s kings” (Psalms 89:27-28)

 

The Old Testament is filled with accounts of Yahveh bringing judgment upon false gods and those who worship them. The repeatedly stated purpose of Yahveh's actions in human history is that all would know that he alone is God.

So man will not be entirely perfected, but he will no longer willfully sin? How will this transformation of human nature be achieved?

To my knowledge, it is listed as canonical by both Josephus and Philo. Can you show me (a) evidence that it was not and (b) ancient commentaries that identify the Anointed One of chapter 9 as King Agrippa rather than the Messiah?

I'm saying that it's a typology that fits perfectly with Christian theology. What do you believe is the significance of the paschal lamb?

It seems to me that the covenantal nature of the Mosaic Law precludes it from being abrogated by men; it must be superceded by God himself.

I suspect that many modern Jews would agree with me, and that this explains why it is no longer strictly followed.

I haven't done this; you have. I suppose this is nothing new; the same charge was leveled against Jesus' first Jewish followers.

I don't claim to know much about Rabbinical Judaism, but I am quite familiar with biblical teaching. It is not highly regarded by most Jews I've met, even those who consider themselves religious. (The same is true of most mainline Protestants I've known.)

You can only come to this conclusion if you've ruled out the possibility that his claims were true. When I look at his life and his teaching, nothing leads me to believe that he was a charlatan.

I provided you a link that challenges this assertion, but you ignored it.

Only God himself can know when his full remant has come into the fold.

Christians don't believe that God is a mere man. We believe that he took on human flesh in order to fully reveal himself to us, to bear the justly deserved punishment for our sins, and to triumph over death itself.

We worship one God whose nature and character are unchanging.

All of God's people are his children, but we are adopted. Jesus is eternally begotten. Read Jn. 1:1-18 & Heb. 1:3, and think about the Son as the word of God and the radiance of his glory.

These passages clearly have Messianic overtones. Obviously, David himself is not supreme over the earth's kings.

What do you make of Ps. 45:6, where this archetypal king is addressed as God?

 

obviously huckfinn seems to have a reading problem NON OF THOSE VERS4ES ABOUT THE G-D'S SON IS ISRAEL IS PROPHETIC and Pslams about is about David's life and his love for G-d not a freaking prophetic book and here is the verses that missionaries ignore


According to the Hebrew Bible, the person who sins is the one who will die. Even using the Christian bible, it says the same thing―no one can die for the sins of another!

Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Exodus 32:32-33 (KJV)

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV)

Every man will die for his own sin!

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Jeremiah 31:29-30 (KJV)

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV) Repeats Verse 4 in Ezekiel 18. (above)

Then Ezekiel sums it up:

Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Ezekiel 18:27-28 (KJV)


back to PS 45

Psalm 45 from NIV xtian bible

For the director of music. To the tune of "Lilies." Of the Sons of Korah. A maskil. A wedding song. [a]

1 My heart is stirred by a noble theme


as I recite my verses for the king;

my tongue is the pen of a skillful writer.



2 You are the most excellent of men

and your lips have been anointed with grace,

since God has blessed you forever.

3 Gird your sword upon your side, O mighty one;

clothe yourself with splendor and majesty.

4 In your majesty ride forth victoriously

in behalf of truth, humility and righteousness;

let your right hand display awesome deeds.

5 Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts of the king's enemies;

let the nations fall beneath your feet.

6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;

a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

by anointing you with the oil of joy.

8 All your robes are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;

from palaces adorned with ivory

the music of the strings makes you glad.

9 Daughters of kings are among your honored women;

at your right hand is the royal bride in gold of Ophir.



10 Listen, O daughter, consider and give ear:

Forget your people and your father's house.

11 The king is enthralled by your beauty;

honor him, for he is your lord.

12 The Daughter of Tyre will come with a gift, [b]

men of wealth will seek your favor.



13 All glorious is the princess within her chamber ;

her gown is interwoven with gold.

14 In embroidered garments she is led to the king;

her virgin companions follow her

and are brought to you.

15 They are led in with joy and gladness;

they enter the palace of the king.



16 Your sons will take the place of your fathers;

you will make them princes throughout the land.

17 I will perpetuate your memory through all generations;

therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever.



Footnotes:

1. <LI id=fen-NIV-14599a>Psalm 45:1 Title: Probably a literary or musical term
2. Psalm 45:12 Or A Tyrian robe is among the gifts

Ps 45 is a song