messianic jews

The judgement is brought upont the Jewish people for turning to other gods, not upon other nations who worship other gods. The other nations are accused because of their practices related to their religions, such as child sacrifice. Even the messianic ideal is only that Israel will be at peace with the other nations, not that everyone will be Jewish.

Pretty much. According to tradition we'll still be able to think for ourselves, we'll just no longer stray from the mitzvot. The mitzvot will be written on our hearts. But someone still might accidentally do something because nobody's perfect.

It is canonical, just in writings and not prophets.

There's much more on that page from various scholars.

It's to remember that God passed over, as the name implies, taking the Egyptians and sparing the Israelites.

According to traditional Judaism, the written and oral Torahs were recieved at Sinai and the oral Torah gives the tools for understanding the mitzvot based on new circumstances. Conservative Judaism is lenient in rulings and sometimes takes History into account. Orthodox is more strict and only uses the tools outlined in the Talmud for dissemination of new understandings.

I don't believe God ever interferes with the laws of physics or that any text is inherently divine, that they are only sacred because we consider them that way. I view Judaism as an evolving religion and tend to agree with the reconstructionists that tradition has a vote, but not a veto. But I am a theist, panentheist, which is an acceptable variant of monotheism in Judaism. I view the mitzvot as a way of spreading holiness into all aspects of life.

Some modern Jews, having grown up in a Christian country, have adopted Christian ideas without realizing it. That's why some may believe there's a hell, even though there's no such thing in Judaism. It's partly a product of some of the immigrants to the US who just wanted to assimilate. Their children ended up with very little education and that's how it goes.

There are other Jews who reject them because they disagree with the Historical basis for particular mitzvot, or who just grew up in unobservant homes and never began to look into their heritage. However, there are observant Jews who are not Orthodox, plenty.

Yes I did. I suppose what I said was confusing. Of course it was levelled against them. From the perspective of the Jews they were wolves in sheep's clothing! All of those Jews were becoming idolators and rendering themselves kareit. That's the penalty for idolatry.

You have probably met Reform Jews. They tend to care much less about Judaism. Biblical teaching is not enough to understand Judaism because the Oral Torah is absent in it. Also, your interpretations of the bible may be very different from a Jewish one. We don't have original sin, for example. We consider that the righteous deed of our ancestors reflect on us, and not their sins, as appeals are made biblically, naming ancestors as a reason. I don't know how someone could consider themself religious and not be concerned with the mitzvot. I don't know how else to define a religious Jew.

I think you read me wrong. He suggested that God was different than they had always known God to be. This makes him a false prophet, and the kind that must be killed. And I know you will challenge this so I will also pose a question: How are the Israelites supposed to know if the God being presented is a God they did not know?

You're right, I did. I can imagine it borrows from texts like Josephus among a few others. So then I would naturally post a link showing that these texts had been tampered with and we'd still both leave with the same opinions. Right?


I'm going to suggest again that you at least skim some of the material here:

http://www.jewfaq.org/

If you know the Jewish positions it will help to strengthen your position. It'll mean that you're arguing against the Jewish position instead of what you believe it to be. Naturally, my position varies a little, but my general world-view is still a very Jewish one. And I have no problem speaking for a more traditional perspective if I know the answers.

I also wanted to know what movement you belong to. I notice you posting a lot of messianic material but I don't want to make assumptions. I'd like to know so I can get a clearer perspective on your position. Thanks.

Dauer

 

No. There are countless passages condeming the folly of pagan beliefs, not just practices. In the Exodus account, for example, God repeatedly says that he's bringing judgment on Egypt and its gods. Again, the stated purpose is that they would know that he alone is God.

The Messianic ideal is that people from all nations would bow to the God of Israel.

I have no use for "scholarship" based on the a priori assumption that prophecy cannot occur.

What's the purpose of the lamb?

You sound more like a deist, which is clearly at odds with your Scripture.

Of course, you can only say that by conveniently deleting certain key verses from Dan. 12, like the "scholar" you quote previously . . .

By their Scriptures, of course. When I read Jesus' debates with the religious leaders of his day, I think that he amply refuted their arguments.

I would at least consider the evidence you provide.

Let me at least offer this textual evidence for an early writing of Luke's Gospel. It's a prelude to the book of Acts, which ends abruptly with Paul on trial in Rome, strongly indicating that it was written before this trial had concluded. Moreover, Paul quotes Lk. 10:7 as Scripture in 1 Tim. 5:18.

I don't know what you mean by "movement," but I don't pretend to have any Jewish lineage. I just have great admiration for Messianic Jews, especially considering the intense opposition they face from other Jews and liberal Christians.

 

Can you cite the source? I do believe it was to show the Israelites that he was to be their only God.

There are still supposed to be other nations, and there is no suggestion that we go out and do this work ourselves. It is for the time of the moshiach.

 

Exactly! Messianic Jews are NOT Jewish!

 

I also want to say that I find J4J's mission statement to be very unnerving...



"Their official mission statement is "to make the messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide," and the organization claims to be "one of the most extensive evangelistic outreaches to Jewish people in the world today." "

 

Here are just a few:



Ex. 7:5,17; 8:10; 9:14-16; 11:12; 14:4,18

Well, Christians believe that he has graciously chosen to include us in this work of his.

Many Christian scholars began as skeptics and changed their minds through the course of their research.

The blood of the passover lamb is clearly tied to escaping the wrath of God.

The Bible is a series of accounts of God's dramatic interventions in natural and human affairs.

By experiential, do you mean subjective?

So you believe in hell, but deny that it is eternal?

Huh?

"Everlasting shame and contempt" seems pretty straightforward.

I'm sure you're familiar with the numerous Gospel accounts of Jesus' confrontations with religious leaders. You apparently don't believe them, though, so I won't reproduce them here.

I obviously disagree.

He didn't claim to be "a part of" God.

Is it possible that they were willfully blind to God's truth, like their forefathers who persecuted the prophets?

For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." (1 Tim. 5:18)

The latter is a direct quotation of Lk. 10:7.

You know that "Christ" is a Greek rendition of "Messiah," which is a thoroughly Jewish concept.

I'm a member of a non-denominational evangelical congregation.

 

I still don't see how you get from there to it being important to go out and tell the nations who God is. It's not one of the 613 Mitzvot. While it may be emphasized in the new testament, there is nothing telling the people to go out and do this in the Tanakh.

Yes, and the same happens to skeptics studying Islam. What's your point?

How? God never said He had it in for them. They knew they would be spared. The target was the Egyptians from the begining. On the other hand, the Israelites had been slaves living in poor conditions. Now they were free and were being ordered, each family would have their own lamb to offer up and eat. They were told to gorge themselves because they were hungry, having come out of bondage.

So what does that have to do with being deist? Where does it say either that the Tanakh must be taken literally or that any of it must be believed at all? This is the 613 mitzvot. You can check and tell me how many have to do with belief and of those which have to do with believing God interferes with the laws of physics.

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Sorta. Not really. As I said, I believe that anything that comes from that experience, any information, has been filtered by the human mind. That's not what I'm interested in as that will be subjective and is why I believe there are so many different religions. I'm talking more about the mystical experience of Oneness, which I value for the experience and not the information a person brings from it. The information is like any other information and subject to human error. I do believe, however, that the experience can be transformative for the individual.

Not really. You believe in Gehenna but say that it is forever and there is no mercy for a sinner. It's a matter of perspective. Gehenna is like a forge. It allows someone the opportunity to transform themselves and still go to Gan Eden. Only the truly wicked cannot transform, and therefore God must in His mercy save them from their suffering.

 

My point is that bringing knowledge of and glory to himself throughout all nations is a central purpose of God's redemptive acts in human history, according to the Bible. This is clear even in the calling of Abraham, in which he is promised that through his "seed" (singular, not plural, as Paul emphasizes) all nations would be blessed.

My point is that you can't automatically dismiss Christian scholars as having a biased agenda, when many have come to their views through honest research, even being initially skeptical toward Christianity.

Again, see Dt. 9, and compare it with Rom. 9.

How would you define the terms "miracle" or "supernatural," and how do you explain the countless extraordinary events recorded throughout your Scriptures? Do you dismiss them all as "figurative" accounts?

You sound much more like a Hindu than a Jew. Judaism (per Scripture) is founded upon propositional revelation.

I would argue that they misread their own Scripture.

They made this claim to Jesus, and he rebuked them as children of Satan.

I contend that modern Judaism has a very truncated view of Messiah, and I'm very unimpressed with its tenuous explanations of several key prophetic texts. Anyway, this all began as an intra-Jewish debate ~2000 years ago, and it largely remains so to this day.

 

Yes, it is singular. What's your point? That's how language works. If he's talking about all of his seed, he says seed. He doesn't say seeds.

I can if they have become biased.

I don't know if you've realized this or not yet but I could really care less what the "new testament" says about Tanakh.

I believe in miracles but I believe that's more about the way we look at life, if we are open to seeing the goodness in life that Hashem provides for us. I consider the events to be either due to a different way of looking at the world, polemic, propoganda, legend, or myth.

As I've said before, you really don't know much about Judaism so you're really in no place to judge, much like the authors who wrote the gospels. I believe in revelation, but I believe that revelation is the experience of Oneness and that anything that comes from it is man's reaction to that experience.

If it's a god they do not know, they are not to follow it. How do you expect them to determine if they do not know a god if not by their own experience?

That's not a very strong arguement. It's just slander, which breaks some of the mitzvot of the Torah. I thought Jesus was supposed to be sinless according to Christianity.

And I contend Christianity has a very expanded and distorted view of HaMoshiach that lacks support in the Tanakh. I'm very unimpressed with Christianity's tenuous explanations of all of the prophetic texts.

This does not remain an intra-Jewish debate at all. Judaism has maintained its position up until modern times. Now some of the movements believe there may be a messianic age instead or there will be nothing at all, but this is a modern issue. The classic Jewish position has not changed and goes by what the Masoretic text says.

Dauer

 

You deny that this promise (a) is Messianic or (b) indicates God's plan to reach the entire world?

You can at least check them out before writing them off.

Fine, then just read Dt. 9.

Yet you claim your faith is rooted in the Hebrew Scriptures?

I know the Scriptures well enough to say that your understanding of "revelation" is not biblical.

Again, through proper understanding of their Scriptures, which Jesus tried to share with them.

I guess that all the great prophets were likewise guilty!

I've pointed out obvious flaws in the strained attempts to deny that passages such as Ps. 2; 110 and Is. 53 are Messianic, and you haven't even attempted to respond substantively. In what sense does David himself rule the whole earth, and how is he a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek? What textual basis is there for arbitrarily assuming that Isaiah abruptly narrates on behalf of the Gentiles in 53:5-8? Why (besides a naturalistic philosophical bias) should Dan. 9 be rejected as prophecy? Did ancient Jewish commentaries not regard these passages as Messianic?

 

Isaiah 53 is not messianic:


A Jewish View of the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 52-53

by Alyza

• 52:13-14 "Indeed, My servant shall prosper, be exalted and raised to great heights. Just as the many were appalled at him--so marred was his appearance, unlike that of man, his form, beyond human semblance--just so he shall startle many nations."

Israel is the servant of the L-RD spoken of here, always the Hebrew is singular, it is corporate Israel that is being spoken of here, the people as a whole. Isaiah 41:8-9 says "But you, Israel, are my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called you from its farthest corners, and said to you, You are my servant; I have chosen you, and [will] not cast you away." Isaiah 44:1-2 says "Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen;. Thus says the L-RD who made you, and formed you from the womb, who will help you; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.". Isaiah 44:21 again tells us that Israel is G-d's servant: "Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for you are my servant; I have formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you shall not be forgotten by me." Is important to note that the very next verse (44:22) says that, "I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, your transgressions, and, as a cloud, your sins; return to me; for I have redeemed you." G-d has already redeemed the Jews from our sins, all we have to do is return to Him, to follow His ways in the Torah--as it says in Psalm 32:5 "Then I acknowledged my sin to You; I did not cover up my guilt...and You forgave the guilt of my sin." Further references to Israel as G-d's servant are found in Isaiah 45:4, 48:20 and 49:3.



Now, let's look at the context of Isaiah 52-53 to see if the servant is also Israel there. The two chapters are connected, and form a continuous message. Isaiah 52:4-6 makes it clear that the servant is again Israel: "For thus says the L-RD G-d, My people went down the first time to Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. Now therefore, what have I here, says the L-RD, that My people is taken away for nothing? Those who rule over them howl, says the L-RD; and My Name continually every day is blasphemed. Therefore My people shall know My Name; therefore they shall know in that day that I am He who speaks; behold, here I am." Notice that a group of people is being spoken about (people is a collective singular here), one that was in Egypt and Assyria. That people is Israel.



In verse 13, that same people is spoken of as "My servant". Israel is indeed the servant spoken of here. G-d is telling us here that, in the end, Israel will prosper and take its rightful place in G-d's plan. But before that happens, Israel (i.e. the Jewish people) will be perceived as marred and unlike other men in appearance. We have been seen by others as demons, devils, rats, other than human. Our life to them has been cheap. When my dad was in basic training for the Korean war, a non-Jewish man from a different part of the country kept staring at him. My dad asked him why he was staring. The man asked my dad where his horns were, because he had been told all Jews had horns. The Jewish people have certainly been perceived as demonic by many, having horns and a tail. We have also be painted with enormous hooked noses and stooped backs, and perceived as having a odd, Jewish aroma. We have been painted as sacrificing Christian children to the "Devil" that controls us, and using the blood in our matzos. We have been accused of poisoning wells and desecrating hosts. Our skin has been used to make lamps, our hair to make cloth. To those who hate us, we are beyond human semblance. Many have been startled to find out we are not demons and have no horns.



Jesus, on the other hand, looked exactly like a man. There are no stories in the New Testament of Jesus astonishing people with his looks, with Jesus having horns, tails, and the like. This is not about Jesus, it is about Israel.

• Isaiah 52:15 "Just so he shall startled many nations. Kings shall be silenced because of him, For they shall see what has not been told them, Shall behold what they never have heard."

We startled many nations by our very survival when they thought we should disappear, but we did not. We have startled many nations by our importance, and by our major contributions to the world in many fields, beyond our small numbers. Such a reviled people, such a small people who, in their view to this very day, should not exist anymore, will come as a big surprise to many nations, many peoples. In the future, they will be surprised when they realize their mistake, that what they have been told is wrong--we are not demons, servants of the "Devil", a fossil who should disappear, rats or evil. They will be startled when they find out we are and have indeed been G-d's servant. When they see the truth, they will indeed be speechless, silent in the face of what they have believed, what they have done.

• Isaiah 53:1 "Who has believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the L-RD revealed?"

The arm of the L-RD is a metaphor used though out the Tanach to indicate G-d is taking direct action and for vindication. This same metaphor is used in Deuteronomy 5:15, "And remember that you were slaves in the land of Egypt, and that the L-RD your G-d brought you out from there with a mighty hand and with a stretched out arm;...". They will find the truth even if spoken by non-Jews hard to believe, hard to accept, but HaShem will vindicate us, the Jewish people.

• Isaiah 52:2 "For he grew up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness that we should look at him, there was no countenance that we should desire him."

They did not think us pleasing to look upon, but HaShem will favor us, our suffering will not endure forever. Indeed, Israel is like a trunk in arid ground, growing with the favor of HaShem. Isaiah uses the trunk metaphor (see Isaiah 6:12) to refer to the surviving remnant of Jews that will come out of Babylon purified, free from the dross of idolaters. Again, no one desired to look at us, seeing us as less than human, as ugly. Yet, before G-d, we are as a tender plant coming out of the dry bitter ground of the world. We are a light in the darkness. Corporate Israel, a singular entity, is the shoot and no one else. Jesus, for example, was not seen as ugly to look upon and gathered large crowds.

• Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised, shunned by men, a man of suffering, familiar with disease. As one who hid his face from us, he was despised, we held him of no account."

According to the NT, Jesus had large crowds of follower and was not shunned. Israel, on the other hand, certainly has been shunned. We have been kicked out of many countries, some more than once. The Romans kicked us out of our own land, renaming it, trying to make us disappear. Spain, England, Germany, France, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, etc. have all kicked us out. We have been shunned by men. We have been despised for many thing we have not done, and just because we are G-d's servant. The Syrian-Greeks despised us, and tried to destroy our religion, to make us worship their "gods". We have known much suffering: the rule of the Syrian-Greeks; the Roman with their forced labor, crucifixions of hundreds of thousands of Jews, and law forbidding us to learn or teach Torah; the Crusades; Inquisition; HaShoah (Holocaust); Dhimi status in Muslim countries; ghettos; expulsions; pogroms; job restrictions; slavery; etc... The ghettos were so packed that disease was a problem. In the concentration camps disease was rampant. Jesus was never shown as diseased. We have been held to be worthless, of no account by the non-Jewish world, we still are viewed in this way by many peoples and individuals. They cannot, did not, see our true face through their hate. This applies so much more to the suffering on the Jewish people at the hands of intolerant, ignorant, and bigoted people, than it ever could to Jesus. Again, I remind you that Isaiah is talking about Israel here when he is talking about My servant.

• Isaiah 53:4 "Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, Our suffering that he endured. We accounted him plagued, smitten and afflicted by God;"

The sickness was in them, not us. We have bore the result of their sickness, we have suffered and continue to suffer because of them. They believed us cursed by G-d, their own books said so as did their leaders. The took it upon themselves to make sure that we suffered the curse they thought us to be under. It was they themselves who made us suffer, through their own free will. Many Jews continue to suffer at the hands of those who view us as cursed by G-d.

• Isaiah 53:5-6 says "But he was wounded because of our sins, crushed because of our iniquities. He bore the chastisement that made us whole, and by his bruises we were healed. We went astray like sheep, each going his own way; and the L-RD visited upon him the guilt of all of us."

Keep in mind that Israel is still the servant. Because of the sins of the non-Jews who persecuted us, we were crushed. We bore the chastisement that made many antisemites feel whole. The non-Jew did not treat others as they should have, straying from the Noachide law against murder. It appeared to many who arrayed themselves against the Jewish people that G-d was punishing the Jews, but it was really their own guilty actions that caused the suffering of G-d's servant Israel.

• Isaiah 53:7 "He was maltreated, yet he was submissive, he did not open his mouth; like sheep being led to slaughter, like a ewe, dumb before those who shear her, he did not open his mouth."

Jesus cried out, he opened his mouth during his trial. We were maltreated, but following the principle that if we were submissive it would all blow over and we would survive, the people would survive, we remained submissive throughout the millennia. In Nazi controlled Europe, to give a modern example, we again remained submissive, not knowing that relocation, another exile from another country like so many others before, was not all Germany had in mind. We were transported in cattle cars, like sheep to the slaughter. Like ewes who do not know they are going to be sheared, we did not know the fate that awaited us in the "relocation trains". We did not open our mouths.

• Isaiah 53:8 "By oppressive judgment he was taken away, who could describe his abode? For he was cut off from the land of the living through the sin of my [i.e. the non Jewish speakers] people, who deserved punishment."

They oppressed us, judged us guilty, and took us away. We, the Jewish people (Israel) were taken away by oppressive judgment (blood libel trials, pogroms, crusades, inquisition, anti-Jewish laws, the Shoah). We were murdered, cut off from the land of the living, because of their sins (ie the sin of murder, etc.) by non-Jews. It is they who murder who deserved the punishment they gave us unjustly. It was those who sinned and continue to sin against us, not us, the servant of G-d, who deserves to be punished.

• Isaiah 53:9 "And his grave was set among the wicked, and with the rich, in his death -- though he has done no injustice and spoken no falsehood."

The rich are often portrayed as wicked, so we are saying the same thing twice for emphasis. Israel (the Jewish people) have done nothing to merit the ill treatment we have received by the rest of the world, nonetheless, Jews were still buried in pits and mass graves. Jews were still given the disrespectful burial of a wicked man. Our grave stones still removed to pave streets, still desecrated even here in America. From what I read in the NT, Jesus was given a decent burial in a nice tomb, not the disrespectful burial of a wicked person.

• Isaiah 53:10-12 says "But the L-RD chose to crush him by disease, that, if he made himself an offering for guilt, he might see offspring and have long life, and that through him the L-RD's purpose might prosper. Out of anguish he shall see it; he shall enjoy it to the full through his devotion. [G-d says:] 'My righteous servant makes the many righteous, it is their punishment that he bears; assuredly, I will give him the many as his portion, he shall receive the multitude as his spoil. For he exposed himself to death and was numbered among the sinners, whereas he bore the guilt of many and made intercession for sinners.'"

First of all, note that the servant (Israel) will have offspring and long life. Israel as a group has had many children and a long life. Jesus had no children and was put to death by the Romans when he was fairly young. This passage cannot be referring to Jesus.



They believe that G-d was punishing us, that the L-RD "chose to crush" us "by disease". But it was their sins that made us suffer. We are G-d's servants, a light unto the nations, our role to bring the universal laws, morality to the world. Hitler's Germany rejected G-d's seven laws for all men, murdering the messenger, thinking that the message made Germany weak. For their guilt we suffered. The Jewish people has offered little resistance to the actions of our persecutors. We have born the brunt of their guilty actions. Yet, we are still devoted to HaShem and are fulfilling our role to be a light unto the nations, so that the nations may one day follow the Noachide laws ordained by G-d. Through our example, we are to make many people righteous, but we bear the punishment of the guilty in the meantime. We have been killed by many, dying with the Shema on our lips. We have been buried in pits as sinners, whereas the killers were the real sinners.



G-d will one day reward us, the nations will one day recognize our role. The nations have numbered us as sinner and murdered us because of their misguided beliefs. It is they that were guilty. We have ever prayed for the world, for the people of the nations in which we dwelt. In the end, all will stream to Mount Zion to worship, all will follow the seven laws of Noah, and "... In those days, ten men from nations of every tongue will take hold--they will take hold of every Jew by a corner of his cloak and say, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you.'" (Zech. 8:23)



Proverb 21:21 "He who strives to do good and kind deeds attains life, success, and honor"



All quotes from Isaiah 52 and 53 are taken from: Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures. Philadelphia, Jerusalem: Jewish Publication Society, 1985.

Other quotes from the Tanakh come from either Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures. Philadelphia, Jerusalem: Jewish Publication Society, 1985. or The Davka Tanakh on CD-ROM



PS2 and 110



The missionaries will say that Psalm 2:2,6-7 refers to Jesus and that the Messiah(anointed one) mentioned in same psalm where G-d has begotten a son.

The Reply is: Context is important as is the author of the Psalm. Psalm 2:2 says (JPS): "kings of the earth take their stand, and regents intrigue together against the L-rd and against His anointed?"

Since there have been many anointeds (Aaron, David, Saul, Solomon, all high priests, Cyrus...) and many of the Psalms were written by David, isn't it more likely that David is refering to himself here? Considering that the next Psalm is about David fleeing from his son Absalom, it is the logical conclusion.

Psalm 2:6-8 says (JPS): " "But I have installed My king on Zion, My holy mountain!" Let me tell of the decree: the L-rd said to me "You are my son, I have fathered you this day. Ask it of me and I will make the nations your domain; your estate, the limits of the earth."

Notice there is a similar passage in 2 Samuel 7:14 ("I will be his Father, and he shall be my son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with such plagues as befall the sons of men;" from the JCL on CD-ROM) and 1 Chronicles 22:7-10 (" And David said to Solomon, my son, as for me, it was in my mind to build a house to the name of the L-RD my G-d; And the word of the L-RD came to me, saying, you have shed abundant blood, and have made great wars; you shall not build a house to My Name, because you have shed much blood upon the earth in my sight. . Behold, a son shall be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies around; for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quiet to Israel in his days. . He shall build a house for My Name; and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever."), both of them are refering to Solomon. Since this Psalm is about David, isn't it more logical to conclude that G-d is treating David just as He will later treat his son Solomon? This does not point to Jesus, but to David. You might also not from this that the title "son of G-d" to a Jew has two meaning, 1) a king of the line of David and Solomon or 2) any human or Jew, as we are all metaphoric children of G-d. It never has the Greek meaning that the New Testament gives it--a divine being, a literal son of G-d. Greek "gods" have literal sons, the One G-d, does not. By claiming to be the "son of G-d" the Jewish Jesus may have been saying he was a king, or he may have been saying that like all Jews or all humans, he is a child of G-d. The Greek consept of "son of G-d" would never have occured to a Jew.



missionaries will say that Psalm 110 'proves' that Jesus is the Messiah, because Psalm 110:1 tells us the Messiah exalted to sit at G-d's right hand and Mark 16:19, Luke 24:50-51, Acts 2:33-36, Heb 10:12-13, and Matt 26:63-65 all claim that Jesus sits at G-d's right hand.


The Reply is: First of all, this is not even a Messianic prophecy, but a Psalm about David. David, you may recall, was the annointed (Heb mashiach) king of Israel. The verse says "And the L-rd (The 4 letters of G-d's name) said unto my lord (L'adoni, an address here for a human master, in this case David) "Sit at my right hamd while I make your enemies your footstool" " As I said in parenthases above, adoni is used also as a title of respect when addressing a superior such as a king (see Gen 23:6, 1 Kings 2, 17). To sit at G-d's right hand is an honor G-d simbolicly gives to David at a moment when the neighboring nations were hostile to him. See 1 Chron 28:5 and 29:23.



Ps is about David and NOT A FREAKING PROPHETIC BOOK

 

I don't deny the promise is messianic. You assert, against any biblical evidence, that the promise is messianic. The issue of what Abraham's seed to do is dealt with a little differently. It's a more a matter of following the mitzvot in order to inspire the other people of the world.

Don't think that you're the first evangelical I've encountered. But while we're talking about checking out, how about 1001 errors in the NT?

http://hometown.aol.com/abdulreis/myhomepage/index.html

Yes, and? What does that have to do with anything?

When did I say that? I think what I did say is that I believe that any sacred text is only sacred because we make it that way, but that this is a positive thing because it is a way of extending the Divine into our world. I gain much from the Torah. But what does taking things literally have to do with anything anyway? Judaism finds four levels of understanding in the text.

a) Biblical at what point in biblical history? At revelation? After revelation? Generations after revelation?

b) You continue to say that because you know a Chrisitian perspective on the bible that you know Judaism. Judaism has a different perspection and in addition to that has the Talmud, midrash, mystical text, and much more. These are not part of the biblical canon but without taking all of them -- except mystical texts in some cases -- into account you really don't know what you're talking about.

I'm not a Karaite. Karaites are Jews who only follow Tanakh and only follow the plain meaning which is NOT the literal meaning by a long shot. Even with them you'd be off.

Okay, so you're telling me that they have no idea God's gonna become a person someday so they're not expecting this at all. Then God comes to earth as a person and tries to convince them that they really know that's the way He is even though they have no recollection of it and it's not stated anywhere in the Torah? That makes no sense to me. I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Thing is, the prophets weren't sinless. They were entirely human. They can slander. If they break a mitzvah, it just shows that they too are human. But if Jesus does it, that's breaking a mitzvah showing that he's flaud and is actually human.

Sephardic-male has been addressing a number of these issues. You don't need to hear it from me in order to have heard it.. But I'll address Dan. Dan is not prophetic because it's in Ketuvim, writings. It's not in nevi'im, prophets. Why would you assume that it's prophetic, because the church decided to move it into Prophets in order to suit its agenda?

Do you know Hebrew? Do you know Biblical Hebrew? If not, who would you trust to translate it for you, the people for whom it has always been a sacred language and a language of study or the people who decided many years after the fact that perhaps it would be good to try and justify the differences between the septuagint and the masoretic text?

Dauer

 

Yes, "the servant" often refers to Israel, but not always. There are cases in which this would simply make no sense, as in 49:6, where the servant is commissioned to redeem Israel (as well as the Gentiles).

Isaiah doesn't say "they" (the Gentiles); he says "we" (Israel).

He certainly had no impressive worldly credentials. (Lk. 4:14-30)

He was clearly shunned by the religious leaders, and even his followers abandoned him when he was arrested.

Again, Isaiah says, "we (Israel) held him of no account," not "they" (the Gentiles).

Once again, what textual basis is there for assuming that Isaiah is speaking as a Gentile (when he says "we/us/our" etc.) in these verses?

He said a few things, but he made no serious attempt to defend himself against his accusers.

It is absurd to pretend that Isaiah is narrating on behalf of the Gentiles!

Unless "offspring" is taken in a spiritual sense.

See http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/qa/psalm2.htm.

As I've asked more than once before, in what sense is David a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek? Also, how can "my lord" refer to David, if he is the one speaking?

 

as usual Huckfinn conti ues to insert Jesus in the posts about JUDAISM and how it differs from christianity:

Melchizedek has nothing to do with David and his descendants


THE SERVANT VERSUS JESUS

There is no way that Jesus of Nazareth could have been the servant of YHVH described in Isaiah 53!


First of all, according to Christian mythology, Jesus was God Himself, come in the flesh! Timothy 3:16 tells us that 'GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH (of Jesus)'!! Colossians 2:9 tells us that 'in him (Jesus) dwelleth ALL of the GODHEAD, BODILY!' John 14:9 tells us, 'he that has seen ME (Jesus) has SEEN THE FATHER!' etc. Since Jesus was GOD 'disguised' as a man, he could not be the Servant of God! At best, he would be playing the part of a 'servant'. It is no big deal for 'God" to 'suffer', since he knows all along that he is 'God', (a very consoling thought!), unless he temporarily 'forgot' he was 'God', (which is unlikely, for a person like 'God'!).

Secondly, the servant of YHVH is to LIVE, and have children! Verse 10 of Isaiah 53 reads, in the Hebrew: "If his soul offers itself as a sin-offering, he (the Servant) shall see seed (children! progeny!) and have a long life! (YIREH ZERA, YAARIKH YAMIM)." Hardly a fitting description of a man who died childless in his thirty third year!!

Moreover, the Servant is a THEY, not a HE!! Again, translating from the Hebrew, we read in verse 8: 'for the transgression of my people were THEY stricken! (NEGA LAMO - third person plural!).

But, wait a minute! WHO is being quoted in Isaiah 53? The Prophet? The people of Israel? The confusion is caused by the artificial chapter division. The story of the Servant begins in chapter 52, verse 13: 'behold, my servant shall prosper! (Jesus was forsaken, Matthew 27:46) ... so shall he surprise MANY NATIONS! (GENTILES!) Kings shall shut their mouths (in astonishment) because of him! For that which they have not heard SHALL THEY (THE GENTILE RULERS) PERCEIVE!

It is the rulers of the NATIONS who exclaim in astonishment: 'who would have believed what we report? The despised rejected servant suffered AS A RESULT OF OUR SINS, and nevertheless, he healed us with his truth. We thought that he was smitten of God, whereas, in truth, he was crushed by our iniquities which we gentiles perpetrated against him!' Now, we know that Christianity was spread throughout the nations of Europe by myriads of saints, apostles and preachers, so the surprise element doesn't exist if the gentile rulers here quoted were referring to Jesus; but what a surprise it will be to them when they perceive on THEIR OWN, that the Servant of YHVH is despised, afflicted ISRAEL who has for centuries borne of the nations' sins! The Pharaohs, Hamans, Hitlers sinned, and Israel suffered.

But, not ALL ISRAEL were righteous servants. Many were sinners! THE SERVANT, THE IDEAL ISRAEL is a class within Israel! The Prophets, the saints, the sages, like Moses - Jeremiah - Isaiah - Elijah - Akiva, etc. - the holy ones who perished in the inquisitions, crusades, pogroms, the holocaust - these are the COLLECTIVE SERVANT, the light into the nations, FAITHFUL ISRAEL who has borne witness to YHVH by deeds, sacrifice and tenacious faith! (This collective servant is further described in the 65th chapter of Isaiah.)

IF SO ... why did Jesus die? If he wasn't the righteous servant of YHVH, (and he WASN'T), why did he die such a terrible death?? The answer to this question is unequivocally provided in the Hebrew Scriptures. "Thus shall you say to them: the gods that have NOT made the heavens and the earth, THESE shall perish from the earth, and from under the heavens!!" (Jeremiah 10:11)


Submitted by Mordecai Alfandari




http://www.karaite-korner.org/light-of-israel/servant_vs_jesus.shtml

 

Then why is he mentioned in Ps. 110?

Read my previously linked article on the Incarnation:

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm

Check out http://www.communityefc.org/cgi-bin/download.cgi?download=1999/CEFC_1999040400_16kbps_mono.mp3.

To my knowledge, "lamo" can be either singular or plural. Keep in mind that Isaiah is the speaker; "my people" refers to Israel, not the Gentiles!

This is untenable. In 52:15, the Gentiles are referred to in the third person. There is no basis for insisting that Isaiah suddently starts narrating as a Gentile in 53:1.

 

as usual still inserting Jesus in the posts





Psalm 110 (KJV) is of interest to missionaries mainly because of two verses:

• 1: The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
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• 4: The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
  ​

This translation makes it seem as if the Lord is talking to my Lord -- as if the same word, "Lord", is used twice. Missionaries thus decide that the first LORD is the father part of their trinity, and the second Lord is Jesus. In fact, the KJV renders two different Hebrew words with different meanings as if they were the same English word, Lord. The first word is the tetragramaton, The Name (HaShem.) The second word is adoni, which means master, or lord with a small "l" (e.g. like in landlord). Obviously, when correctly translated, the Christological reference disappears.

Here is my translation:

1. Of David a psalm. The word of HaShem to my master; "Wait for My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool at your feet."
   ​
2. The staff of your might HaShem will send from Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies.
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3. Your people will volunteer on a day of your army at a glorious holy place. The dew of your youth shone from the womb.
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4. HaShem swore and will not repent; you are a priest forever because of the words of Malchizedek.
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5. My master, on your right hand, has crushed kings on the day of his anger.
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6. He will judge nations [into] a heap of corpses; He crushed the head on a great land.
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7. From the stream on the way he would drink; therefore, he raised his head.
   ​

Who is this "master" (the individual called "Lord" by the KJV)? If we assume the psalm's words are David's words, it could be anyone greater than David -- e.g. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Moses. In fact, Rashi interpretes it as being Abraham. If we assume the words are written by one of David's courtiers, then the master is obviously King David himself, and the psalm is praising his military successes.

Jesus, who did none of the things described in the Psalm, doesn't fit.

Here is the KJV traslation of the Psalm:

1. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
   ​
2. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
   ​
3. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
   ​
4. The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
   ​
5. The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
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6. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
   ​
7. He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
   ​

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16331&showrashi=true

 

This makes no sense at all. It seems like nothing more than a desperate attempt to avoid obvious messianic meaning of this Psalm. Why would any of these patriarchs be called a priest forever?

 

There is nothing messianic about Psalms apart from the mistranslations you have and Melchizedek is NOT MESSIANIC putting your dead man/god into the hebrew scriptures don't make it messianic

 

I see. No need to answer any of the questions I've raised, just keep regurgitating the same bald assertions. Compelling.

 

I'm sorry to have to say it but there is so much literature and commentary by many many people on these texts which you haven't read, it was never included in the old testament. Further, most of the more used translations of the old testament (eg the KJV) aren't accurate translations of the original hebrew texts, and even if they were you've got to understand the many different implications and meanings many hebrew words have, no bible I have ever heard of includes other meanings or even goes into the true depth of the meaning. For example, the translations of the phrase (from memory) in [size=-1]Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other elohim besides me" often are [/size][size=-1]"You shall have no other g-ds besides me"- a reasonable translation, but it misses so much of the depth of meaning of elohim that I would still consider it inaccurate. Then, if we did have a magical english word which paralleled elohim, you'd have to look at commentaries on what was actually meant by that phrase, we don't talk the way people used to and it is easy to confuse meanings..

Sometimes it does come down to personal interpretation, and it probably will here, but this discussion isnt even up to that!! You can't even agree on the true wording of the text! (in regard to the "we" vs "they" etc) I might actually look up the original wording in hebrew online then at least we're all on the same page and can look up translations of those words ourselves..THEN it's down to interpretation!!
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