Why did God need to sacrifice Jesus to forgive sin?

.

 

.

 

Death is the consequence.

And how is what I said not a whole lot more?

I have answered your questions, all of them and most of them several times. If your question asked why I answered why and if your question asked how I answered how. So the only reason that you haven't gotten your question answered is you haven't asked it yet. Don't expect me to read your mind.

Even in our everyday lives we buy things and they are not immediately delivered.

But let's look at the case at hand. First, God does not force us to accept the ransom sacrifice, we have to accept it of our own free will and it is a free gift to all that love God. So time has to pass so all can have the opportunity to accept or reject the offer. But what would happen if people around you started growing younger and living longer and never seeming to die? Would you say I want to get some of that? But would it be because you love and trust God or would you just be in it to get get what you can get? That is one of the accusations that Satan made, that men only love and worship God for the good things they can get. And that is the second point, Satan has made a number of accusations against God, if Satan's only accusation had been that he was stronger than God, that could been settled instantly but Satan was "smarter" than that, he accused God of ruling improperly, of withholding what is good from mankind and that he and mankind can do a better job of ruling themselves with out him. So what could be called a "universal court case" was started to prove the matter one way or another for all time. God has given Satan and mankind an opportunity to prove their accusations. Personally, just a casual look around shows that Satan and mankind have not proved their accusations but there are still those contending that it can all still be turned around. So God will wait to step in and save mankind till there is no doubt that it cannot be turned around by anything that Satan or mankind can do and it is only after that stepping in, that those who have accepted the ransom Jesus provided will be returned to perfection.

Ukr-Cdn doesn't spend a lot of time here, I believe he is still in school and so a lot of his time is spent doing that. When he has time, I'm sure he will be back to answer your further questions put to him.

I, from time to time, will also leave to do other things and then come back but when I come back I usually only respond to the things that seem interesting to me. If I responded to all the insincere or sarcastic questions and petty attacks on me, I wouldn't have time to do anything else.

No, what am saying is I think that the "ransom-sacrifice" might have been accomplished without the torturous death that he suffered but I don't know that. In any case, it was Satan that handled Jesus' death and it was him that had him tortured to death, perhaps in an attempt to get Jesus to give up on ransoming his life for mankind.

 

I disagree, the "experience" is what it is, an experience and justification is not its purpose.

Most people consider God able to do anything he want and being able to describe that "experience" so men can "understand" it, would seem to be one of those "anythings" God could do. But I do believe that a person can experience God in their lives as well and that the description that God gives helps you to do that and helps you to know it when it happens.

I guess it could be anything but God's word does describe the principles a person should live their lives by. I believe that the more someone accepts those principles and the more they apply them in their lives, the better they are able to understand the nuances of God's word, the Bible.

 

Are you saying that this is the point?

 

Naw, posted a reply from a long while back regarding freewill. Might take it to PM...

 

Faith without works is dead.

Love does not wait on time or description but invitation. There is no when it happens, you find what you look for.
..

 

No one alive has experienced the consequence of death and experience is of no consequence to the dead.

That is not first hand but hearsay.

What jesus does say is those things you do not forgive you will not be forgiven for so sacrifice is for naught unless you learn mercy.

 

Dope, I like you and no one can say that you don't have a unique way of looking at things.

But to me, you are the "tar-baby" (from Uncle Remus' Br'er Rabbit and the Tar-Baby story) of Hip Forums.

From time to time you say things that I reply to because I think there may be some that may want another side to what you have said. But I do so with the full knowledge that you will NEVER let it go and that after the subject has been discussed ad nauseam and you have gone into circular and tangent reasoning to avoid acknowledging that what you are saying is either meaningless, wrong or both, you will start with personal attacks.

Then if some one tries to leave the discussion, you will say something like; "I guess since waterbrother chooses not to rebut my comments we shall assume he stands corrected and that his argument has been shown to be wanting on several points", in order to do anything to try and pull others back into the morass that is your circular and tangent reasoning and name calling.

So for the time being I'm extricating myself from the "tar-baby" of Hip Forums. See Ya.

 

I figured as much but I thought I'd poke you anyway.

 

Actually, my thoughts are shared even by you, sometimes.

I am not familiar with that story.

Well those who endure to the end, succeed. Those who fail retire for a more opportune time in which to try again.

The comment was an accurate description of the state of this debate.
When you call a thing meaningless when meaning is most behind it, is the purpose of it, it reflects ignorance at some level.

I look forward to our next discussion.

 

An excerpt from wikipedia:
In one tale, Br'er Fox constructs a doll out of a lump of tar and dresses it with some clothes. When Br'er Rabbit comes along he addresses the tar "baby" amiably, but receives no response. Br'er Rabbit becomes offended by what he perceives as the Tar Baby's lack of manners, punches it, and in doing so becomes stuck. The more Br'er Rabbit punches and kicks the tar "baby" out of rage, the worse he gets stuck.

You mad?

 

No, I'm happy, happy that you seem to understand.

 

Yeah, there are many layers of symbolism in the story and we can manipulate symbols to mean anything we want.

Hopefully our understanding grows as we grow. When I was a child played with a child's toys and all that.

I am flattered that you have given me a nickname.

 

It may not be it's purpose, but that's what it does. It justifies.. It doesn't matter if you get that message from a near death experience, a completely random occurrence, through meditation or psychedelics - there isn't a purpose for that experience. Shit happens and people react to it, we attempt to derive meaning from it all, then con ourselves into thinking that we're actually right!

The descriptions attempt to describe the indescribable.. people can get loads of different meanings from 1 sentence, and will inevitably interpret things to benefit themselves.. not to understand the true meaning.

I completely agree, but people don't accept those principles. They accept the fact that if they don't follow God's word they're going to burn in hell for all eternity. It becomes more about saving your own ass than loving and helping others, the positive acts are built on foundations of fear and insecurity because they're always being watched by this big man in the sky.. who's looking out for your fuck-ups, and as you probably know - insecurities don't feel nice. This causes people to get narky and look out for others insecurities to make them feel better about themselves.. this is more of a subconscious happening, it's not in the front of your mind.

Yes I know I'm generalising again, but it's a very real generalisation.

In an ideal world, religion is a beautiful thing and works wonders. Unfortunately it's not an ideal world and nothing goes to plan. It ends up causing more problems than it solves.

We share the same core beliefs(I think), and if religion works for you that's good shit.. but it doesn't for a large percentage of the worlds population. It confuses them beyond belief because they're looking outwards for an internal state of mind.. they look to god, expecting him to fix their issues and insecurities instead of doing it themselves. It's a western thing.. we're all about quick fixes, we don't like putting effort in.. but we do like pointing fingers, as long as it's not at ourselves - that's why Satan's handy to have around. Point all you like at him, it's clearly his fault.

 

72 pages of argument and STILL no chance of agreement,or even tacit acknowledgement of the value of another's beliefs.

Considering this is all over a person who's message was [to paraphrase] "Let's all get along" it seems somewhat ironic.

And no-one has done so much as mention that since homo ergaster first used fire there have been tributes to god/gods.

Can we not just accept that ideology is a diffuse thing open to personal translation and leave it at that?

After all;72 pages,gentlemen!

 

If you don't mind I might just use it, honestly I've never liked calling you "the dope".

 

Most of us are just having fun, so why are you trying to rain on our parade?

 

Do you think debating concepts is a form of antagonism, it needn't be interpreted that way.

What were you waiting for? I suggested that the idea of human sacrifice was a primitive superstitious practice.

Everything arises from premise. If your ideal is that all blonds should be exterminated, that creates a potential difficulty that is hard to avoid.

As far as 72 pages it doesn't seem interminable if you are participating.
At any rate, glad you cleared all that up with such aplomb.

 

BAD PARENTING ADVICE - now can everybody get on with their lives?