obviously our people should be afraid of there own government thats the whole reason for the second amendment in the first place so if in some way the government tried to take control of the people we had a way to fight back against them it seems like more and more people are fine with there rights slowly being taken from them as long as they have the distractions and pleasures that appeal with them now i really dont see our military being fine with hurting the people they die to protect my point is simply how will any of us even have the chance to protect ourselves and the ones that we love if our gun rights are taken from us to be totally forthright it wasnt all that long ago America was in a civil war you never really know what kind of situation will arise i see things coming to a nasty head sometime in the future with how our government is and has been running for some time now i hear more and more from people that our government is turning into a socialism what are the thoughts on this
I think yes, America is dangerously close to socialism. The idea is that the government takes most of the peoples money through taxes, and makes them pay for shit they don't want. Like this ObamaCare ordeal, they're forcing everyone to buy government-issued insurance, that will most likely go bankrupt by the time you and I are old. Same as the social security bit.. We're all being robbed. PS Thanks for reposting this, I would've done it for you, but I didn't know if you wanted me to.
Naw thanks very much for the tip i wouldnt of minded to much if you did as long as the topic was out in the open for others to discuss as well and it is kinda crazy how much our government taxes you name it and its taxed now they pay for important things such as the brave police officers and firefighters that risk there lives witch is great but i also believe our taxes are spent on many things that could be consisdered bull now of course i have limited knowledge on this subject like to many others as well so i should stop before i say something outright stupid i believe average citizens such as my self have almost no real way of finding out where all our taxes actually go and are spent on first way to fix the problem is to know all the ins and outs to it wihich i just dont have bouncing around my brain
Yeah, and I know not everyone's going to agree with me, (there is alot of socialist/communist type on this site.)
of course no two peoples ever see eye to eye on every subject especially a subject such as this i see them both as ways to control freedoms like the ones our government supposedly stands to protect which mind you im more then greatful for all the freedoms that i still have due to me simply being an American i just dont see either one working out for our country nor sitting very well for most of our people anyways look how well socialism worked out for the soviet union
It didn't. Socialism/Communism has never worked in the real world. But you're right, our current system isn't working either. I think the left and right work together to screw over the minority who believe in freedom.
left and right republican democrat never seemed smart to me splitting into parties when everyones suppose to be looking for the same goal i dont claim anything because i know of people claiming either one or the other so thats all they vote for no matter what the individual is out to do they just look if it republican or democrat and if thats what they claim thats what they vote silly right?
Can guns save you from suppression? http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=253937 (an extract) It seems to me that many people who have guns come to see them as a way and means of dealing with or ignoring socio-political problems. Basically they do not see any urgency in dealing with the social or economic roots of crime since they are armed and believe that if a criminal comes for them they will have the means of dealing with them. And in the same way many believe ‘government’ suppression isn’t possible because they are armed that if the ‘government’ comes for them they have a gun to protect themselves and that enough people have guns that the ‘government’ could be overthrown anyway if it tried to suppress its citizens. ** I have tried to point out that this doesn’t seem to fit with US history, and have given some examples but here I would like to go into a little more detail and show how the US political establishment colluded in the often systematic and overt repression of what it saw as a political rival to power. And to show that during this obvious case of state repression the American people did not rise up to champion freedom and democracy in fact most accepted it, many thought it a good thing and others were happy even eager to help in it. ** Unions that tried to improve the conditions of some of the poorest in society often found themselves the object of state repression from the very beginning. Demands for such things as an eight hour day were ignored or suppressed with force by private police forces, state militias and even the National Guard, there was the suppression of public meetings or free speech, the imprisonment of people without charge, many people including women and children were beaten up and others killed. Also it was difficult for left wing groups to break into the political mainstream. The Democrats and Republicans have often joined together to exclude other political groups or party’s, since these are in the main right wing in outlook it has meant that the groups most often excluded have been left wing. (That is why many people in the US don’t vote for what they believe in or want but just to keep out something that they see as worse.) Against such opposition it is amazing that in 1912 the US Socialist Party had over a thousand elected officials in local government and that Eugene Debs got a million votes in that years presidential race (6 per cent of the vote, the envy of many socialist around the world at the time). It was able to get over thirty Majors into power as many legislators and had large numbers of loyal votes in many urban areas. It was a growing force. But the repression of trade union groups and left wing political ideas continued. For opposing WWI Debs was arrested and convicted to ten years in prison, from where he stood for President in 1920 receiving 913,664 votes (Nader got about half that in 2004 and Perot about double in 1992) Another socialist opponent of the war was also sentence to prison Victor Berger however he did get elected to Congress but was refused entry this caused a re-election that he again won, but he was still refused entry. In other areas like New York openly socialist representatives to the city and state - who had been democratically elected - were also barred from their posts. Around this time many states passed laws banning the display of red flags (a communist and socialist emblem) and the federal government set up the General Intelligence Division headed by none other than J. Edger Hoover to monitor (harass) left wing ‘radicals’. This harassment turned into repression during the late 1930’s with the establishment of the committee for ‘Un-American Activities’. This was set up to root out people whose view didn’t conform to what was thought of as American (basically thought policemen) and what the US political elite that had a grip on the system came to see those with left wing views as un-American. It began by targeting those that advocated the overthrow of any government in the United States. Now think about that many people here have advocated the overthrow of the US’s government. As I’ve pointed out above it is the justification for many to have guns so they can overthrow the government of the US if ‘needs’ must. It made it illegal to advocate or teach such ideas or help disseminate them in any way also any group that the government didn’t like could be targeted and forced to give the names and address of its members and the FBI illegally was authorised to tap phones and mail open peoples mail. This suppression was stepped up after the war, and to give an indication of the mentality of those in charge of the ‘un-American’ purge this is a quote from Albert Canwell who was chair of the California state committee – “If someone insists there is discrimination against Negroes in this country, or that there is inequality of wealth, there is every reason to believe that person is a communist” And when the House Committee for Un-American Activities dropped its investigation into the Klu Klux Klan in favour of going after the left wing the committee member John Rankin said that "After all, the KKK is an old American institution." ** What followed seems very like a move by the American political elite to rid the US of what they saw as a political rival. A loyalty programme was brought in for all government workers and anyone with left leaning views or associations could lose their job, be sacked for their beliefs. People could appeal but the evidence against them did not have to be disclosed and accusers did not have to be identified. Think about that – believing in equal rights or a distributive tax system could get you thrown out of your job? Later it became even easier to sack someone for having ‘suspect’ (left wing) views, with the criteria for dismissal going from ‘reasonable grounds’ to only having to have ‘reasonable doubts’ about a persons supposed ‘loyalty’ and those that had been cleared under the lower criteria had their case re-opened. And in 1953 departments were given the power to dismiss individuals without having to conduct any hearing whatsoever on the merest suspicion. The Progressive Party of the time, which among other things advocated an end to segregation, full voting rights for blacks, and universal government health insurance, was branded a ‘communist’ party. Its leader Henry Wallace, along with others advocating such ‘radical’ ideas were then banned from speaking at a number of universities. The purge spread from the government into other areas most famously the entertainment industry, but also academia were airing ‘communist’ ideas (that in practice meant many left wing ideas) could bring about dismissal and the law where the American Bar Association also brought in a loyalty oath, and lawyers that defended those accused of having un-American ideas could find themselves been accused of the same thing and put under investigation. At the same time there was a constant stream of anti-communist propaganda but this very often made no distinction between what was ‘evil communist’ and the vast majority of left wing thought. And many Americans even today seem to make little distinction between hard line Stalinism and the wishy washy leftism of say New Labour - it happens frequently on these forums with ‘communist’ been thrown out as an insult and being directed at those with even the most moderate of lift wing views. And on the many right wing websites there are shrill cries whenever anyone says anything that isn’t firmly right of centre, and the kind of attack and slander once directed at commies has now expanded to include ‘liberals’. ** Many pro-gunners seem to feel they are the final arbiters, the ones that would defend American liberty, uphold the US constitution. So what were they doing when their fellow citizens rights were been curtailed in such open fashion and the Constitution trashed? As establishments know if they want to go after a people, religion or political group they first have to demonize it and or make it seem threatening. This can be done for many reasons to scapegoat, blaming a particular group or race for the woes of the majority as happened with the Jews and Bolsheviks in 1930’s Germany, or it can be directed at whose that are seen as political rivals. The Nazi propaganda films showing Jews as rats seem crude today but the principles are the same as the anti-communist films made in the US. (And with every threat or policy the villains change, Columbian drug dealers to accompany the ‘war on drugs’ and Arab terrorists to accompany a pro-Israeli foreign policy). The thing was that many people at that time (as now) who were pro-gun were also right leaning politically and were therefore not seen as a threat by the political establishment but rather as an ally. The thing is are they still? If they are I think the establishment will continue to stand by them. But if they stop being seen as allies or the establishment believes it has other means of control they will turn on the gun owners. I think many pro-gunners realize this and feel the threat. Now many are going to cry ‘YES that’s why we need guns’ but what I’m trying to point out is that those guns are unlikely to save them. Because once the government - which the establishment is happy with - is threatened the thing threatening it is put under pressure. Look at what happened to the anti-government citizen militias after the Oklahoma bombing opened up an opportunity to move against them (and how they briefly became the villains in a number of films). The problem is that I think many pro-gunners believe the guns will protect them and so do very little (if anything) to actually counter the establishment. That could be done politically but only if they were willing to ditch the views that help the establishment to stay in power and realign the political system so that it is not a threat to its people.
See above about how things can be manipulated and suppression I’d ask this what if left wing politics took off in the US, and large numbers of very militant ‘socialist’ began buying large numbers of guns and started talking about ‘changing America for the better’, how long do you think it would take for the established wealth to get the second amendment changed and have the guns confiscated?
Guns are NEVER going to be confiscated in this country. The U.S. HAS 5% of the world population and 80% of the guns in the world owned by the American people. The right wingers only say that the government is trying to take away the right to own guns, in order to make people afraid of the government. The right wing SUPREME COURT won't let it happen even if the lefties tried to get it through congress. But the lefties are so terrified of the NRA lobby, they'd never attempt it anyway. Confiscating 280 million guns is impossible.
