why did God allow Lucifer to interact with man?

This question has been bothering me lately. We are told that God has an ultimate plan to redeem us and that his son was sent to save mankind from eternal death...the problem I have with this is I can't help but ask why did he let it get that far? The bible says "what fellowship can light have with darkness?"

Additionally a sacrifice or atonement was needed to repair the realtionship with God due to the seperation created by sin because God is holy and therefore can not commune with man without atonement to purge man and make him clean again and restore the connection.

If this is the case and Man was without sin initially, then why was Satan allowed to commune with Adam and Eve in the form of the serpent even though he was cast out of heaven and considered the father of lies and the prince darkness at that point? Why did the same rules not apply? Why was he not forbidden by spriitual law to influence us or tempt or interact with us in anyway whatsoever. If he had been and if all evil had been prevented contact with us, then we would have likely remained ignorant of the knowledge of good and evil and continued on without sin.

No sacrifice would have been needed and no human would never have to experience Hell. God could have cast Lucifer anywhere in the universe but he placed him in our midst seemingly without warning us of his nature or the fact that we had such an enemy whose very mission was to destroy us. Why weren't we simply seperated?

Furthermore if we had no knowledge of good and evil, did Adam and Eve truly grasp the concept of what they were doing? Yes they were told not to eat of the fruit but there eyes were not opened yet to good and evil until they did, so why wouldn't they trust the serpent? I liken it to Plankton telling SpongeBob to do something wrong by lying to him and making him think it was okay. SpongeBob is inherently good but also childishly ignorant and can be decieved by Plankton who is evil and manipulative with ease.

The Bible also says that at some point Satan will be cast into the lake of fire and at that point it seems to be the end of his story. If god intends to do this to him anyway, why didn't he just get it over with and send him there so that we never had any dealings with him or his fallen angel army?

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone's beliefs with these questions, I am asking them with sincerity. It seems a great deal of trust is needed on the part of mankind and yet the most high God is barely noticeable in our lives. Even compared to how he interacted with folks in the Bible. I know it says "it is done" so he need not do anymore for us but it also says that he wants a relationship with us and the hairs on our heads are numbered suggesting that he knows us intimately. Why then is it so difficult to connect with him?

 

Who exactly told you about god's plans? And what was THEIR source?

Same thing here: who wrote what's in that book?

The fellowship that light has with shadow is that they complement each other, define each other. One cannot exist without the other.

 

Hey ghost. I appreciate your comment and see your point. However this is the book that the religion my questions are directed at is based on. The plan I'm refering to is mostly about the salvation plan to save man after the fact of falling into sin.

My questions though are somewhat specific and I don't want to travel that far away from them to defend a postion in regards to who wrote the bible or who told me about Gods plans. The bible did and many people over a long period of time wrote it and yet here it is and a widespread relgion is built around it. Please keep in mind that I myself am questioning its contents which is the purpose of this thread.

 

That is my point. Human beings wrote, edited, compiled, and interpreted the bible. God may or may not exist. Religions are always man-made.

Someone might argue that the bible is "the word of god". Who is a priest then to INTERPRET the words of his maker?

That would be heresy, in fact.

 

Mothman: Theologically I think the idea was to allow Man to be tested - that love cannot be pure if it has never faced trial. I mean, they only had a couple rules, and it wasn't even that hard. Just don't eat the fuckin fruit and have children. Adam and Eve = Epic Fail.

 

lolololol :rofl:

 

The story you are familiar with is a political device designed to manipulate men through the attraction of guilt.

If you look at creation story as allegory absent cultural norm, man did something he was allowed to do although ill advised to do.

That is,

To measure the world in terms of good and evil.

The measure we give is the measure we receive,

therefor evil is our own invention. Let he who is blameless cast the first stone.

The "devil", means slanderer.

The fall is caused by accusation, jesus convicted even though innocent.
Atonement is achieved through forgiveness as the separation is caused by accusation.

 

I gotcha and I agree but that I kind of want to hear more discussion based around the concept of the story being true simply because even if I were to except it as truth I would still have to reconcile questions like the ones I've posed here. I don't dispute anything you are saying but it's kind of a thread ender if we head in that direction. Thanks.

 

I have to rep this. That was funny. Okay I can dig that love had to be tested but then I have to question a god that says...
1 Corinthians 13:4-8

New International Version (NIV)


4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

...and then allows us to be tricked into a situation that can condemn us to eternal death and yet still wants to test our love???

 

You need to read the next part:

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.


Apparently it wasn't love.

 

Exactly, the guilt thing is a mind job but then so much of it is. My problem is that I myself have had an experience that makes me believe that there is an ultimate holy "something" out there. I currently persue spirituality by seeking wisdom in any place it may be found. I am deeply entrenched in a pagan community and happily practice witchcraft. I do not however pray to Goddess and God as wiccans and withces do. I don't dismiss them I simply have no relationship with said diety.

I also meditate in front of my Buddhas and I thank them for a good meditation but I do not worship Buddha or consider him a God. I will also refer back to the teachings of Jesus and I do see wisdom in his words.

My general belief is more along the lines of being a traditional witch. Trad witchcraft is not wicca and does not acknowledge a god or a godess. Instead our diety is a "divine essence" that is in all things. I believe in the magic of the miracle that we are all here on this rock spinning around a giant fireball within a galaxy that is rolling around in a vast space. If it all started with a bang and primordial ooze, it's still magical and sacred to me.

My problem lies in my previously mentioned spiritual experience that leads me to believe in a consciousness that is capable if communication with us. For me this points at a specific being with a specific character even if he/she/it exists in all things. Since I don't know what it is I try not to pretend to be an expert and say this god consciousness is this or that. I am careful not to simply rule out the christian judeo God altogether for safety's sake.

This is where my torment lies. What if (and that's a big if) it turns out that christians, even if they behave badly and represent their god poorly...have identified the right being as God? If there is any truth to what is found in the bible then I'm screwed. While this doesn't haunt me 24/7 it is something I try to address in my head from time to time. In my efforts to chase down wisdom I pose myself the kind of questions that I decided to throw some up on HF today.

 

It seems to be an up and down roller coaster until the end when all hell seems to break loose in revelations and some get to go to heaven while others are cast into the lake of fire. In the time of Noah, God was sorry that he had made man. Later he sent his son to die for us. He loves me, he loves me not...

It just seems to me that in the context of this all being true, then one would need more than just the bible to accept it as truth in it's entirety and yet that is all we were given.

 

That's not entirely accurate. Christianity is not a religion based on a bible - it's not like some guy went out into the desert and found a book or had it dictated by an 'angel'. The existence of Christianity predates the writing of the New Testament. In fact, the New Testament wasn't put together until the Council of Carthage in 397 AD. Many texts were flying around that were purported to be scripture - but only the books that stood up to the Tradition that was believed at the time were included.

During the time leading up to 397, you have many individuals debating Christian theology, among them considered the most important are referred to as the 'Church Fathers' such as Tertullian, Origen, Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, etc (though several people post 397 also carry that title, such as Augustine of Hippo)

So in effect, Christian belief is based on both what the bible tells us, and the Tradition of what Christians did and believed before its acceptence into canon.

 

I will acknowledge that and add that I do feel though that at least some of the evolution of christianity into its current form can be attributed to the bible being in the hands of westerners.

 

I'd also go along with a metaphorical interpretation. Some scholars think the passage may echo the Sumerian tale of Enki the water god (also known as EA and Great Serpent) eating the eight sacred plants--although that story is quite different. Anyhow, I see it as a commentary on the basic human condition: two prototypical humans who can't be content with Paradise, but just have to eat that fruit so they can become like gods. The bit about Satan and Original Sin comes in later interpretation, especially with Saint Augustine.

It it's a metaphor, it might be unproductive to be too analytical about it. Why did the gods keep the box of troubles in a place where Pandora could get to it? It's like my girlfriend who can't enjoy a good movie if there are any holes or loose ends in the plot line.

 

.

 

Okay, I have no problem with it being just a metaphor. Honestly though, who cares if analyzing it is unproductive? Much of what is discussed on these boards is unproductive and yet people spend a great deal of time here.

It seems like most of (if not all) of the responses are coming from folks that believe in nothing outside of the 5 senses show them. I respect and even envy your position. Must make things much simpler. Thanks for the responses so far but I can see no harm in further discussion if anyone feels like adding anything.

 

I think you answered your question.

The same reason we like to watch snakes at feeding time. God,like us enjoys plots, suspense, the thrill of the chase. How boring would it be to sit around just watching your perfect creation. What would you do if you were God?
Is that peacepipe real? How did you get it?

 

Not one mention of Emperor Constantine?
200 years after they kill Christ, they give His "dangerous teachings" back to the masses in a combed through and reworked form from what was originally given by the Apostles?

Noooooo, nothing to see behind the curtain at all,,,

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/

There was another one found recently, made of stamped lead or copper sheet I heard about, have not seen a translation yet and "experts" like discounting it for the sake of some minor technical discrepancies in it's construction but most are the typical paper thin arguments against Non-traditional texts on the subject.

Ahhh, found it.

http://www.bibliobloglibrary.com/jordan-lead-codices/

Anyone else find their arguments against the validity of it on somewhat shaky ground?

 

Why did he let it get that far? Free will. Would we have free will if every time we make a decision God is there to stop us, prevent us from ever making a bad decision? If God wanted to create beings that never made wrong decisions he could have made us robots that only could do what they were programed to do.

Pretty much.

Satan at the time had not be cast out of heaven, as was noted in Job, when entered in among the sons of God and before God. It wasn't till much later he was cast out of heaven.

The angels as well as man were given free will and until Satan choose to turn against God he was not evil and so no prohibition was necessary.

Also we were not ignorant of good and bad, God had told Adam and Eve what was good and bad. The tree of knowledge of good and bad was not knowledge but a reaching out to take for themselves the right to decide what is good and bad without using God's standards.

Again Satan was not yet Satan and until he used his free will to turn himself into Satan he was a faithful servant of God and thus there was no need to separated him from mankind.

Adam and Eve had been told and did grasp the concept of what they were doing.

Their eyes were opened in the sense that experienced bad and not just knowing what bad is, much like a child who told not to play in the street knows it is wrong but when hit by a car experiences the effects of doing wrong.

Adam and Eve were not children but full grown adults.

Because Satan didn't challenge God strength, he challenged the way God rules, saying that God was holding back what was good for his creations. To determine whether that is true or not would take time and God has given Satan and mankind time to prove their allegations true.

The difficultly is ours not God's. God is not going to force us to have a relationship with him but even when most of mankind has turned their back on him he has provided for our needs.