Was the Nicean creed a big mistake?

No, unlike the usual Protestant response to that...

 

So on the face of it, there is nothing wrong with the nicean creed as long as it it a sincere statement of beliefs?

If that is the case then "such things", (vain repetition), is the wrong category for the creed.

One thing you cannot avoid even if you are sincere is the oath like, official nature of the creed. It is an oath of fealty to a certain mindset.

I do agree with you about vain repetition but I would go even farther to say that any petitionary prayer asking for specific conditions is vain in that we do not know what is good for us. Our own sorting out does not matter as we can be very confused about our stances about one thing or another. God on the other hand knows what is in our heart before we even ask.

How do you feel about the lords prayer? Are it's words vain in content and therefor vain in repetition?

 

That's why we have God

 

And why our prayer is god's will be done.

 

I once read that praying with an expectation isn't prayer, but ordering a pizza. Another priest I was taking a class from blasted the prayers that are framed, "Lord we pray X, that Y". The that clause limits God's response to our prayer.

The two thoughts when you think any repeated prayer is vain are 1) ignore this with the Our Father, 2) call the Our Father a model, but not a prayer to be repeated.

I take the other side, prayers are vain not because they are repeated, but because they are vain. Christ warns against repeated vain prayers "as the heathens". Christ himself prayed repeatedly (the same words) the night he was betrayed.

 

I was just kidding but I would have thought that by now you have known that I'm not your usual "Protestant".

 

No, the Nicean creed is pretty much out in left field but I believe that the thread is talking more about whether having such things are good for Christianity, rather than if they are correct in of themselves.

True but god asks us to ask anyway, you know the whole keep on asking thing and all.

No, the words of the Lord's prayer are not vain in content. It is a model prayer, something to model our prayer after and was not meant to be something that we repeat, word for word, as our own prayer. Jesus said pray this way, not pray this.

 

Accept that, we should always pray with the expectation of being heard.

I don't believe that "clause" is bad in of it's self but we must remember that ofttimes God's response to such "clause" prayer is no.

The words Jesus prayed that night were the same or at least similar because what was in his heart was the same each time.

The problem with repeated prayer is not that it is repeated but that it so easily leads to lazy prayer and thus vain prayer.

Prayer should be us looking into our heart and talking to God about what we find there. I would venture to say that very few of us look into our heart and find the exact words of the Lord's prayer staring back at us.

 

So I don't understand, the creed is both helpful and not helpful, a little of both you said?

So god asks that we pray in vain? God asks us to ask for what?

Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you. These words are about looking for and finding answers, not about achieving results. The result formula is the measure you give, is the measure you receive.

So if you say the words verbatim, holding in yourself the appropriate meanings, there is nothing wrong with the repetition?

What are the elements of the "model prayer", that are significant? What elements are we to duplicate in our own words?

 

By this criteria to love god with all yourself would induce laziness, singularly focused in such a way. Wide is the path to destruction.

I don't think repetition induces laziness. Practice, repetition, builds momentum. Laziness causes repetition to become thoughtless.

It is one thing to say you love god and another to establish that light consistently in your mind. Pray, without ceasing.
Most people prefer comfort and will lend their attention to anything that seems pleasing at the time.

Mantra is an effective way to train the mind as you can only entertain one conscious thought at a time.

 

This is true only to the extent that we would prefer illusion to be real. Seek first the kingdom of god and all things will be added to you.

Once you have decided to choose for god because god is the truth then the words of the lords prayer are the only words staring back at you when you search your heart.

 

Yep, as usual you don't understand. For one thing, I never said the "creed" was helpful, it is not.

I never said anything about God asking us to pray in vain but somehow you think I did.

This is why I tend to stop talking to you. You come up with what you seem to think is some relevant question, when in fact you have taken totally unrelated thoughts and forced them together to try and make some kind of point that makes no sense and when you stop making sense there is no longer any reason to continue the conversation.

Finding answers is a result.

You keep trying to force your "ideas" on everything that is said and that does not allow you to hear what is being said.

The question you should be asking is not if repeating the same thing over and over again is okay but why would you would want to?

Every part is significant and we can duplicate all the elements in our own words, as long as they are our own words. It is interesting to note that the Bible records many prayers of Jesus and the disciples, all of which have elements of the "model prayer" without repeating it word for word.

 

What way does repeating over and over again the same thing show love for God? That wouldn't even show love for another person let a lone God.

But it does.

It also can build in weaknesses, that is why athletes cross train.

That can also be true.

Your point being?

Your point being?

Mantras are a good example of vain repetition.

 

You would know since you prefer the illusion to be real.

No, God does not want the words of the "lord's prayer" to be what you see when you search your heart. Maybe that is what your "spirit" wants you to see but God expects more of you and your heart than that.

 

What is this comment for?

Yeah, you just have an impression of what I said and didn't get what I said.
I didn't say anything about what god wants, or what he wants to hear.

Nor does god expect anything from you.

What I said was when you decide to choose for god because god is the truth, then the words of the lords prayer will be the only words staring back at you from your heart.

Heavenly father I call upon your name for all goodness, thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
I look to you for all substance and count on your guidance and protection.
Teach me forgiveness that I may know it, for you are the truth. There is no where else to turn, no other answer.



You may choose god for many reasons and many people do, but no reason endures except the recognition of truth. You may chose god because you are seeking comfort, but once you find a measure of comfort then god is no longer as important. You may choose god because you want the world to be a better place, but a moments satisfaction in that case will make god less important to you. You may choose god because that is the custom, but customs change.

 

I think it more limits our capacity to observe gods response. As in, we piped for you but you did not dance.

I don't know what you mean here.

I agree.
It is prayer given in order to be heard by men or to satisfy the vague impulses of men, that is in vain.

 

You said:

"If someone mindlessly repeats the same thing over and over again it becomes a vain repetition but if from humble, heart felt desire, words are repeated, then no, it is not vain repetition."

No, I asked a question.

I know you find reason for hardness of heart. I appreciate that you speak with me regardless. If you don't understand something or do not see the relevance of something, ask for clarification. I can assure you that every seeming divergence comes back into place with understanding.

Yes, but answers do not produce results of themselves, they must be applied.

What the heck are you talking about. I am sharing as I am led by the holy spirit. I am speakings words that are understood or not, accepted or not. It is not up to me to determine the results of what I say, I cannot force my ideas on anyone. That someone accepts them speaks to their own recognition of truth, I didn't force anything on them.

Why are you telling me what questions I should be asking, as if that is evidence that I don't understand something? Another attempt to restrict the flow of information? Why wouldn't I want to repeat success?

What I asked for was you to spell out in your own words the significant parts.
Maybe every part is significant, but you have described no part in your own meaningful words.

 

It is not the repeating but the singular focus. When you say a word it occupies space in the mind. you cannot say two words, at once. It is not the repeating of one thing over and over but developing integrity of the one thing.

Somnombulance maybe, but not laziness. Prayer is of two parts, the question and the answer. It is the answer that awakens, not the question. Every inhale is followed by an exhale. We pray and we observe the sensations that follow.

I can however appreciate your sentiment that monotony can lead to disinterest, but disinterest is not laziness, and weakness is not laziness.

We achieve results through effort toward a desired aim.

That is the cause of complacency or laziness, not vain repetition.

This generalization is a good example of vain apprehension.

I thought you said it was sincerity not the form of the words that mattered.

 

Some people do not think we should pray those words, but that Christ's prayer serves as a model of how we should pray (i.e. the structure...)


Liturgical Christians often use it as a prayer to be repeated.

 

In hopes that you will see that you live in a world of illusion and continue to be mislead.

I got what you were saying, it is you that didn't seem to get that it was me talking about what God wants and not you.

Or perhaps it just that God doesn't expect much from you.

Like I said, God doesn't want the words of the "lord's prayer" staring back at you from your heart and if that is what is staring back at you from your heart, then you are doing it wrong.

Vain repetition?

Choose God? You make it sound like you're picking sides for a pick-up baseball game.