Have you ever...?

This is interesting and I'm not entirely comfortable with the thought of subconscious emotions being in such disconnect with conscious emotions but what makes me feel it's possibly even more complex than saying that it's your real inner feelings is that with something like LSD I often experience rapidly changing, often contrasting emotions projected onto the same inanimate objects. So that's to say that the subconscious and conscious emotions experienced in the psychedelic state often feel as if they are in an emotional roulette/guessing game.

 

It's far out that just about everyone here can follow the far out conversation. Safe journeys to all.

http://soundcloud.com/eckoe/drift

 

I subscribe to the filter theory as well. The key variable in human experience is perspective and past experience. Some psychedelics dissolve our filters and/or disconnect our memories of experience, allowing us to see things differently. But as for seeing how reality REALLY looks/feels... that is subject to debate.

Any considered, thinking person must arrive at this conclusion. Absolutely.

For sure, watch out. And watch out for the people that claim to KNOW with absolution.

That is a sign of wisdom, right there. And the key to open-mindedness.

Objectively, taking a leap of faith is philosophical suicide. But has always been the key to much larger understandings in science. The 'what if' argument must be put out there if one is to overcome a paradigm and see something in a new light.

I quoted this to tie in with the "framework" ideas. The implications of the discoveries in science in the last few decades are staggering. These discussions of the "true" nature of reality, altering our filters to "see" differently, all are fascinating to me. Some of the most important work being done today is the attempt to define a unified field theory, the "theory of everything" that would harmonize general relativity with quantum theory.
This could be the "framework" idea born out. It's very possible that the common experience on some psychedelics of seeing interconnectedness, frameworks, harmony in people and nature is that "normal" experience is put on a shelf for a bit and we get to feel the influence of the matter (and energy) of life around us. Quantum entanglement is a proven fact, even though we dont understand it. That matter and energy are just two different states of the same "thing", is proven.
I believe this "framework" that science is chasing is what is behind "feeling a tree's emotion", getting good "vibes" from another person, mathematical fractals and patterns in nature, on and on. What we perceive on the larger scale can be absolutely no other way than the way it is. The perfectly balanced, relative forces of gravity, strong and weak nuclear, and electromagnetism allow for no other possible "existence" than what we have. And if and when science figures out what ties quantum mechanics to the fundamental forces, then we might just get a peek behind the Grand Curtain.
If we don't kill one another first.

This surprises me, with your background and all. I feel, (correct me if I'm wrong) that most people without highly trained minds or have lazy and unthoughtful minds, are completely unaware of their subconscious emotions and live life with their subconscious and conscious emotions in perpetual disconnect.
I feel I see it around me all the time. People that lash out at others, or on a 'natural high' with no clue of the deeper impetus behind it. Not that I'm good at it but still, I try to practice a little self-awareness.

It's all fascinating stuff. Ideas and thoughtful considerations like these are what saddens me when you see certain people just "getting f*ed up man".
Not that there isn't a certain recreational need met with just goofing around, thats mostly what I use beer for. Most of us like a little escapism in our lives. But to miss the value of psychedelics to broaden your mind, open your deeper self to examination and peek behind the scene with "less filtered" eyes, really is a loss.
There's a reason some people here speak of psychedelics as tools.

 

I wouldn't say that psychedelics allow us to see how reality really looks, or even that it has a "look." I feel that sight contradicts the ability to perceive true reality. I would think that a being which can perceive reality does so through something entirely different than sight, sound, or touch. This is why I believe that high dose DMT breakthroughs give a good idea of this framework reality because you become separated from your body and occupy a realm in which you aren't bounded by time or space. I feel like two of the biggest things keeping us from understanding reality are our perception through sight, sound, and touch, and our existence as beings bounded to move linearly through time.

 

Going back to Hedgeclipper's example of a repressed traumatic experience, eventhough the event of the experience is buried away from consciousness, it is still often represented in various (usually uncomfortable) conscious emotions which usually leads an individual to seek help, or act out in a particular way so there is still more or less a 'cause and effect' relationship between the subconscious and conscious. So it makes sense to me that subconscious and conscious emotions share a similar sort of relationship, eventhough emotions are a bit more abstract than something like a traumatic incident.

We live in such a society where emotions, attitudes and such are often molded by others (parents, teachers, peers, etc.) and based on your gender, age, job, so on and so forth individuals are supposed to act a certain way, so while it may be the case that some people who lash out have a disconnect from their conscious and subconscious emotions, it could be the case that some individuals are actually more in tune with their emotions but their emotions just happen to stray from the accepted norms.

 

But for now we're limited to interacting with our universe with primarily our 5 senses. We've come a long way with just that so far.

Valid point, certainly. For some time now I've felt that some or many people that are just "different" don't have something wrong, they're just on different levels, if you will.
I was just making the point that often people have behaviors that are driven by subconcious material and they are completely unaware of it. It isn't easy to be deeply in touch with your unconscious mind and I'm no expert tho I do try to step back and consider it when reacting particularly strongly in a negative or positive way.

One of the very valuable aspects I find in psychedelics is the ability to shine a light on the deep areas of the mind. The dark material, I think Ann Shulgin calls it.

 

Surely we have a long way to go yet.

 

I entirely agree.
A metaphor I usually employ is to picture the ego as a lampshade and the truth of 'the process' (or whatever you believe to be really out there) as the bright bulb of pure, shining light in the middle. The lampshade is made of fabrics of many different colours, each tint representing a different ego and filtering the light to present each person with a slightly different view of reality. The only way to view pure, unfiltered reality, however, is to remove the barrier of the lampshade altogether. Powerful tryptamines will do this.

Staring into the bulb of eternity is just great

I've tried DMT a few times but i've never quite got where I wanted with it. I have however got to the place you described with DPT. That stuff brought me to places I could never have imagined possible. Despite the ineffable nature of the experience, I tried to give words to it if yer down to check it out: http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=92869

 

That was extremely intense. I especially like how you took on extra senses and how time ceased to be linear.

 

Dude, what the fuck.

Haha, just kidding. What an amazing TR :sunny:. For awhile I was thinking I should do this, but then, maybe not.

Have you tried ayahuasca and if so, what did you think?

 

Thanks. And I have never tried ayahuasca but I would be very down to someday do so. I have, however, tried straight n,n-DMT and I very much enjoy, although I have never had as full a breakthrough experience with such thorough ego death as DPT. With the intensity of DMT, though, adding MAOI to that would just be wtf. I've done mushrooms on 5mg selegeline (a pharm MAO-B) and it was pretty fucked up. DMT would be a whole other story. Someday I must try it

 

Bump, because I think that this type of discussion (in the context of synthetic drug use) is a good thing.

 

Ok so i figure people are naturally excited by miracles- witnessing the impossible. That wall between possible and impossible you can dissolve with psychedelics. There's somethin to be witnessed but the big joke of it all is that its ineffable! You could describe it all day and miss the point.

You speak the word "infinity", you could define it with words, but psychedelics SHOW you, and that is beyond the capability of man. It is so nice of god to give us these tools to understand the immeasurable and unquantifiable facts of existence!

 

it's true thatwhat psychedelics show us is ineffable, but, at least personally, I've had quite a few experiences that were very difficult to understand and I've only come to peace with all of them through a lot of meditation and integration. It is my belief that one should not trip until he has properly integrated the experience of his last trip (otherwise you build a sort of psychedelic backlog which eventually collpases in an unpleasent way) and a lot of this integration, at least for me, comes through first meditating on the experience, but also discussion, writing, music and art.

In other words, I do not believe that discussion of the psychedelic experience always ends in obfuscation!

I don't think you can say "psychedelics make you experience the ineffable" (whichis certainly true) and just leave it at that.

Either way, though, you seem to be of the terrence McKenna camp. As in, you believe that psychedelics are a form of sacrament and that "god" gave them to us specifically in order to experience the ineffable. This is an argument that I agree with in a very profound way, but, may I ask, why do you think this? And what kind of a god do you think would give us these sort of tools?

Personally, the God that I believe in could be described simply as the macrocosm (and I am the microcosm) (I guess that's kind of like brahman and atman). It is a system fo interconnected dualities which I like to call "the process." to me, the process is god and psychedellcs are some sort of strange key that allows us to go from the microcosm to the macrocosm. They're almost a glitch. I don't know how to explain them, but I would certainly agree with you when you say that they are a sacrament

 

god is infinite, right? Its a concept of the infinite that defines us as human. What kind of god gives us what tools we need? A nice god.

Im grateful for lsd, and you?

 

Personally, though I am grateful for LSD, I always found it incredibly thought provoking but I have trouble actually enjoying the experience. Maybe its because I've been screwed over by set/setting though.

I figure it's no coincidence that LSD was discovered around the same time as the technology necessary to bring about the death of us all.

e: hey! 666 posts. better not post for a bit

 

^funny u say that i heard just today the opinion that "LSD was the global spiritual counterpoint to the atom bomb"

yes truly a crossroads in human evolution.

we have just yet to evolve our minds, and look, the 122112 is soon, are you watching for the changes in awareness? heres a hint! it wont be televised =)

 

I feel like if the atom bomb and LSD two major parts of the last era of expansion of consciousness, then whatever dichotomy comes up in the next expansion of consciousness is going to be utterly insane.

With the way that things in the human world are moving exponentially faster as time goes on (information transfer, physical speed, transportation, energy, etc.), it feels almost like the human collective consciousness is having a trypatmine peak.
You know that type of tryptamine peak experience where it takes a piece of your reality and loops it faster and faster and faster until it all balls together into a singularity and blasts you off into the other side? Like right after you take a big hit of DMT and it feels like your body is in a techno drop and you're full of anxiety and excitement?
It feels like that is what is happening to humanity. We constantly think the end is coming -- like the fear of death experienced during a powerful tryptamine comeup -- we are getting more and more collectively anxious -- that tripping tryptamine anxiety -- and the worl is speeding up exponentially. It's almost like the tryptamine comeup is a microcosm for the experience that humanity is collectively undergoing. But when will we finally break through?

God I hope that's what's happening in this change in awareness that you are describing, because I can't take the anxious comeup part much longer!

 

bump. I like this thread.

 

this is what i thought