Do you think your country has a "class structure"? What do you think about it?

Ego? Huh? Not at all, IamnotaMan. I just thought you were better than that. Apparently I was wrong.

You're real issue with me is that I disagree with you. Apparently that is considered trolling in your world.

I never called Tony Blair a liberal. Please go back and re-read what I posted.

 

Over here in Europe we have way more class than in America. At least over here people dress and eat better and we have a much more interesting culture too. All in all I believe Europeans are much classier than Americans.

 

There are class structures in every society. The problem is when it is used as an excuse for personal failure to change ones life.

 

Thats the only problem? And "every" society, you think?

There are murders/rapes in many societies. But some have a lot more than others. If you got murdered/raped Heat, how would u feel if someone said "ahh well you deserved it, I mean it happens everywhere".

Away from the analogy, some societies have hardly any class structure, in relation to meritocracy, or indeed none at all. For example, Germany and Taiwan are infinitely better than England and India,.

I managed to get where I wanted. But it doesn't stop the fact many people don't get where they should be. Its not their fault Daddy didn't send them to Eton/ Harvard's legacy admissions. Thats one of the pts of the thread.

 

I think economic differences as well as segregation are a natural outcome of variation and free association. I see nothing wrong with some people earning more than others.

 

Hmmm, that word "should" is an interesting one to use and, I think, speaks a great deal to Heat's point.

 

Would you extend that to people, as you say, only wanting to associate with others of a certain type, be that type an economic, racial, or cultural one?

 

Segration and free association are 2 different ie opposite things.

I'm talking about social class when it is dictated by your (eg childhood) background rather than ability.

Its not about your own income. Thats why I say, in England you can be a billionaire and STILL outside the "Club" ie be considered "super-rich but working class".

 

No matter what "class" you come from it is usually not one that approves of rape and murder, so I am not sure where or why that point was brought up. It really adds nothing to your stance and is rather misleading in the context of this thread.

Far too many people in general are more than happy to sit back and blame circumstances, environment, financial and the list goes on, as being the reason they themselves have not achieved what they think they should have or wished to.

I have seen people who came from very little and have pulled themselves to where they wish to be. I have also seen many with the proverbial silver spoon that still think someone else should wash it.

We also make our own windows of opportunity and the flip side is we also can be the one who stands in our own way.

Choices.

 

I don't really feel that Canada has a 'class structure.'
I mean I know my fair share of WASP's, but I don't consider them a 'class' just snobs.

~ FlowerMama

 

To that I would say: so what?

 

Can be, sometimes. But often, its someone else in the way.

Well rape and murder are crimes in the same way that recruitment and work discrimination/hate crime is. Yet some classes/people deny the latter crimes exist, or indeed think they are acceptable.

Your stance is rather like blaming the rape victim rather than the rapist.
Which sounds rather bizarre. Imagine if an employer had a sign up at its interview day which read "No niggers, pakis or spiks"..

Now would you think, "Ahh well who cares, they're probably lazy anyway"?
Would you ever say that in public?

I know the former head of recruitment of one of Britain's old "merchant banks". He left the job. He was pressured by the directors to recruit only 10 to 15% of trainee candidates from State high schools, the rest having to be from private ones. Even if the State kids were better than the private ones. Now bear in mind, over 90% of British kids go to State schools.

Now I'm sorry, but I dont exactly see how the State kids were somehow to blame for all this. I mean, if *you* are recruiting, do you put in your advert "No lazy, smelly black people"?

 

A society cant function if it is governed by an unmeritocratic cabal
ie A cabal that has no comprehension of matters outside of itself.

It cant be considered a democracy. Therefore it has no moral authority, effectiveness or credibility.
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The simple point is that the billionaire is still the victim of class discrimination, even if he has shown he has big talents.

 

I just call em cowards. Afraid of competition and people finding out they're actually a bit dim

 

I beg to differ that they are the same. I think that losing a job is preferable to rape. It is not even a good analogy.

There is always going to be discrimination of preferential treatment in any work force. Often requirements are set out by laws that are there to "stop" discrimination of minority groups.

There are also those who choose to blame their lack of qualifications and ambition on those who do have those qualities or qualifications.

You want a position, sell yourself to the prospective employer. You need to be able to do so in todays employment market. Employers will have a mandate for hiring, it is up to the candidate to show that they can fill that.

Once again, more often than not, it is choices.

 

OK 1stly. The thread isnt about me. I run my own businesses. And my partners are usually foreign/ people who started from scratch. So I never even have to talk to someone who sounds like Hugh Grant.

2nd, crimes are crimes. The whole terrorism thing in Ireland and Israel for example owes its existence in large part to employment discrimination.
So I don't see how anyone of moral perspective would want to brush it under the carpet.

I'm not well up on Canada, so think of somewhere like India or England where "background class" is the issue. I'm only talking about when the working class candidate is better than the private high school one ie an absence of meritocracy or recruitment integrity.

On your bold text, I think I've made it clear in my example above, that the recruitment crime is exactly like having a sign up with "No niggers".

Ofcourse people should keep working hard and not give up etc etc. That isnt
the issue of the thread at all.

So do you condemn class hate based discrimination? Or welcome it, because it served you nicely?

But, from what I've read so far, you really are suggesting something that is like "blame the victim not the rapist". Its the perfect analogy.

 

You choose to read it that way.

You imply that where someone starts out in a class system is where they generally stay.

That is where we differ on opinions.

While where you start from can make the journey more of a challenge it does not necessarily have to be where you stay.

I hire people for a living. I do have mandates for requirements that have to be met but I also usually have a "wish" list as well. Often times it is not a technical issue rather a "personal" requirement. For example if they are joining an existing team, they have to have the right personality to fit with them. That is what sells them as a prospective employee.

The choices come in with taking the opportunities and often making them. For example if your educational background is from a lesser known institute of learning then back it up with something else that sells me on you. Give me a reason to hire you as I would not interview unless I was considering doing so.

Or you can leave an interview with the view that it is always the system and it is unfortunate that you are always singled out because of some class system.

 

Of course!

What, are we all supposed to have a government-mandated poor, black, gay, or Muslim friend now? Preposterous!

2

Is vanity what 'equality' is all about after all? I've always suspected it. If my great greats have acquired wealth or distinction and that distinction is bestowed upon me generations later, why should you have more of a right to it than I?

If anything, it quenches all sense of humor and doesn't get you laid.

 

No-ones ordered to have a gay, black friend.
Its about keeping a lid on social unrest. Its about managing a country properly with the most competent in important roles. Without fuckwits running it into the trashcan ( George Bush, David Cameron etc)

If some prick with an IQ of 7 is running the country because of who his daddy is, theres something wrong. If it isnt sorted out at some point or other, people start shooting, bombing whatever. Its happened in lots of places.

Either a country can be run sensibly and justifiably, with agreements on merit. Or it can be changed LEnin style, with tanks blowing up Baron Bellend's palace. I dont mind. I'd do either.

Some prick who never worked for it doesnt deserve it. He doesnt benefit his country. He hasnt earned it. In short fuck him, preferably strung up from a lamp post. He's usually the sort of **** who claims others are workshy- yet lives off daddys trust fund. There s no reason for him to have something for nothing. Warren Buffett, the worlds richest man, is absolutely right on trust fund twats.

Feudalism, which is what class structure is, is just a refuge for cowards, who cant face the fact they have no ability.

 

1)YOu're encouraging me to make that conclusion because you're being deliberately ambivilent on the topic. And ducking out of condemning these sorts of hate crimes. In short, you dont seem to be that different to that Saudi in the other thread - if u are choosing to duck the issue.

2)Nobody is denying that a smart kid from poor parents is likely to go further than them. That doesnt mean a place doesnt have a class structure. We dont differ on that aspect.

3)I'd always considered Canada to be pretty non class based. Altho I know about bullshit like Lakeside College etc.

You seem to be choosing to be vague in your answer. Every example of hate crime in employment in England, the recruiter will come out with some yarn about "personality". Basically what he means is he personally doesnt like people who's dads might be black, or plumbers or a driver of a Ford etc. No matter how brilliant the candidate might be.

So are you saying you'd like to choose someone who went to Lakeside and lists rowing and polo as his hobbies, and has an English "lord" as his father?
Because u dont like someone who's a much better candidate, from poor parents+ just happened to like boxing and snooker, rather than polo?

Because if that *was* your view, you really wouldnt be any better than the Saudi in the other thread.