Why all the pampering of young people?

I agree, which is why I always ask the question in these type of discussions; "OK, good point, what do you propose to do about it?"

That's when it always falls silent.

I'm intelligent enough to realize that it is an issue with more facets and details than I am personally privy to, therefore that tends to preclude my arriving at any solid resolution.
But it seems for many here just bitchin' about "the man" will suffice.

Why is it when I ask for someone to tackle the logistics involved with some of the social and economic reforms I am always hearing discussed so heatedly in these forums it falls silent?
Nor did I say or imply that I can only "envision the world within the confines of the current system".
Actually I am at an advantage over most who have responded in this thread thus far because I am not blinded by knee-jerk opinions and attitudes and therefore am able to envision with an open mind.


So what I am left with is that you are saying I am being "sheep like" because I am not just jumping on the "down with the system!!!" bandwagon evidenced in this and other threads......hmmmm

verrrry interesting

doesn't follow the herd, but still subject to the clippers.....

 

I don't think you sound like an ass at all. In fact, my last post might have made me sound like an ass (which I didn't mean to do). I guess I'm speaking from experience and also expressing how I think it "should" be. Of course I know it isn't really free. We pay for it as taxpayers but it's something I'd be happy to pay for as an investment in our future. As far as how much it costs to put a kid through K-12....that will vary depending on a number of things but I think we should all be able to agree that even if it costs $35k.....if we divide that by 12 years we will get a number that isn't even relatively close to the ballpark of what it costs to send a kid to a university for a year.

I don't think education should be something that we toss on the tables for budget cuts every year. There are changes that I think should be made to the education system but gutting it isn't one of them.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that priorities are not where they need to be, especially considering that the the world simply isn't as big of a place as it used to be and in order to progress into a viable future, drastic modifications need to be made concerning societal priorities.

But that is a slow process and we are forced to contend with and function within the current systems.
That is what I ask for, ideas for modifying the current system, yet at HF the most common responses are the knee-jerk responses and that is usually where it ends.

The system is far from perfect and in need of change, but barring any global catastrophe, change needs to be made from within the confines of the current systems,
OR
develop such a more efficient and enticing system and introduced in a manner that a greater number of individuals would make that choice over the current offerings.

 

I think changes need to be made locally first. Just flipping the system on it's head on a national level is probably going to be counter-productive. I also think that changes need to be made in different ways and I'm probably not qualified to design how that should be done. But an example of that might be how success seems to be determined solely by test scores these days. We're basically telling students "Just remember all this stuff long enough to make the proper marks on the test and we'll move on." It might look good on paper but I'll bet that most educators think there are better ways to educate.

I'll also give you a different example of things that need to be improved. In my town there is currently an uproar over the school budget and how the district has been run. It's been mismanaged and everyone knows it now. What most people didn't realize is how much the person doing the managing is being paid. He's the highest paid superintendent in the state for our district size. The next town from us has a district that is twice as big and the superintendent make $11k less per year. On top of that, I don't think most people realize that he is married to the middle school principal who doesn't an atrocious job according to many school employees (my wife being one of them). Conflict of interest? The two of them combined make well over $250k/yr which is very high for an Iowa town with just over 12,000 people. The next town east of us has twice the number of students and the superintendent gets paid $11k/yr less than our....and most people would say it's a better district too.

So I agree that there are a lot of things we can do within the current system to make improvements. I would love to see massive changes to the entire system but it seems like it's tough to even get the small things right sometimes. As far as universities go....I'd like to see where that money goes. They are absolutely a business and they rake in millions, if not billions of dollars. Just look at the sports. The recent court ruling allowing student-athletes to unionize I think is a step in the right direction because it at least acknowledges the system for what it really is.

 

I really don't think most people on this board aren't perfectly aware that it will be paid for by someone and saying it should be 'free' mostly means that it isn't fair that young people essentially have to pay outrageous sums to train themselves for jobs that might not even be available when they graduate.

In Germany tuition costs are extremely low after having been free for a very long time, and the thing is, most of the Germans I have met on my travels have been able to speak 4 languages... the reason is that they keep their schools affordably low-tech, and have 'tiers' of education so that they don't waste time trying to force-feed students subjects that they have no aptitude for.

http://www.german-way.com/history-and-culture/education/

Germany is especially significant because there is an emphasis on mastery and craftsmanship that is lacking in the North American systems.

European countries haven't been infected by the same culture of greed that is driving the American one, and would never see their educational institutions reduced to pure businesses where students don't just pay for their education but also gym memberships and football stadiums and swimming pools and restaurants-- it's insane.

AT LEAST they could raise the minimum wage so that student-type jobs can actually pay for the ever-rising costs of tuition on their own. At every single turn you realize that the system is set up to empower the elite few and punish the rest.

They could cut costs dramatically by offering bare bones classroom-type instruction, get rid of all of the extra bullshit and stop overcharging students in arts programs, who get little more than a handful of photocopies and a room to sit in, buy their own books, and for whom the most rewarding part of the experience tends to be social. Why do they need to pay thousands of dollars to sit in a room with likeminded people in order to get their piece of paper??? Most of their course material is available online for FREE, so WHY are they expected to pay so much for their education? The money isn't just going to the professor's salary. Obviously, it's going into the science and tech programs.

What they need to do is force the corporations to take some goddam responsibility for their own future workers instead of forcing everyone into the ocean of debt so they can save the strongest swimmers on a whim... all before they downsize and toss everyone out like trash so Mr. CEO can buy another yacht and buy up the world's water supply in order to profit from the future effects of the global warming he's causing.

Another thing they could do is raise their standards and make higher education an elite, exclusive privilege instead of offering degrees to people who would be better off doing something else. If fewer people had degrees, then businesses might not so retarded about what they're demanding from people and might have to open up their own training programs, which would be a huge bonus for pretty much everyone. But of course, they would probably just import wealthy foreign workers or people from places where education is affordable.

Corporations/social programs could be playing a more active role in their own future by allowing students access to training labs in their own buildings... it's not like they couldn't afford it if they only paid their CEOs 100 million instead of 300 million. Universities are supposed to be about education, not exploiting young people or mindlessly training them for jobs they might not even get.

 

In all fairness it has to be said that most germans I have met in Germany itself could only speak in their own language.

 

Both great points.

Not only does the government get off well with student loans, it spares them tax expenses. When I was in school I didn't get certain tax credits because, although my income was low enough to qualify, I wasn't eligible to receive them. The reason being that I was a student and will likely (not likely for anyone really) according to the government, eventually make more money than a person who is uneducated.

The system serves both the private institutions and the government. Always.

 

My girlfriend is Danish and can speak 4 languages fluently, and from her and her friends I get the impression that in most of Europe this isn't considered such a big deal.

I don't mean every single German in the world can speak 4 languages but I do think that Europeans overall are better educated.

 

Don't think of it as free, just a delayed payment plan. We can fund education for youth through tax revenue, and then expect them to do the same for the next generation after they are finished schools and paying taxes.

 

Someone wanted to know how to pay for some needed changes---None of this will work=Quit spending on war and the machines of war. Confine legislative bills to single issue-no tit for tat perks. Tariffs against companies that have located out of the country, thus creating jobs/money for our citizens if the companies decide to return. Force automobile companies to manufacture more electric vehicles and/ or diesel vehicles with the diesel made from natural products such as hemp, creating many, many jobs switching over. This will also have a side benefit of loosening the stranglehold of the mega oil companies that they have on EVERYONE ON EARTH, by depending solely on products that can be farmed here and used here. Not to mention cleaning up the air. Giving precedence to the long term unemployed for these new jobs, will create more tax paying citizens, more money in circulation and reduce welfare rolls. Put a cap on the salaries and parachutes CEOS and other corporate functionaries "earn" , say a couple million a year. Ditch the "corporations are people" BS and raise the tax rates on the wealthy back to somewhere in the 50-60 percent rate after the 2 million per year is reached. CUT government waste--no more studying the effects of a gnats nutsack on its sex life. Or other equally useless endeavors.

OK, so far the things I mentioned (that won't work, of course) would release enough money(IMO) to provide/enhance this society, through a streamlined government, a peaceful, gainfully employed, working, taxpaying populace, to provide free education for anyone that wants it and can cut the mustard. Imagine the ideas/inventions that have never been seen or will never see the light of day for want of a chance to stretch the imagination and brain power of the millions and millions left out of the education system. They need a chance to try. Next, we move on to single payer. Everyone gets health care. No more insurance middlemen ripping off a percentage of everyones money as it passes through their hands. Gone.

Good health is crucial for the well being of ALL citizens and is obviously connected to quality of life. Is quality of life for sale in our present system? Yup. It's a shameful example that we've taken our pioneering spirit into the modern world with our " get all you can and keep all you can," regardless of the plight of many, many of our citizens.

OK, forget all that I said. It's over. The money changers have won and could not care less about any of us. Let's just do the same things over and over, present the same arguments over and over, get the same results over and over and let the same tired, old faces decide our fates over and over? We're doing just fine according to some. Fuck a bunch a' new ideas. How would they help the 1 %? Isn't that the most important factor nowadays??

 

Well said.

 

Can I be your campaign manager?

 

Could be accurate though Especially if we also count the ones with one post!

I understand, but it is really my and others experience that Germany is different than countries like Denmark (or the rest of Scandinavia), Belgium, Netherlands etc. Of course there are a lot of germans that speak a foreing language or 2 but the majority doesn't seem to... and this in contrary to smaller european countries. By the way, when people in countries south and (especially) east of Germany speak a foreign language it is german