Do Nations Matter?

the last couple of paragraphs especially, starting with "business has a place, but ..."

 

Trouble is, Roman Catholicism has been teaching for years that its members are oppressed because they pay for public schools but don't always use them. Since 38 states passed "Blaine Amendments" in the 1870's, America has been attempting to keep tax dollars out of the hands of that church and others. Today, backers of vouchers and other schemes to privatize K-12 education need to realize that what they advocate amounts to the privatization of public schools, and the turning over of education to patriarchal religions. Bad. Very bad.

 

I don't equate capitalism with harm to the environment. Look at how China, under Mao, harmed its environment. Also, a socialist bureaucrat who knows his political leaders will beat the you-know-what out of investigative reporters, will disrespect Mother Nature more than a capitalist who has to worry about exposure, boycotts, and Greenpeace.

 

I will speak locally, in New Jersey which has a high standard of living in general. We also have the reputation of a challenged natural environment.

Voters have stepped up over the last 25 years to endorse bond issues for all kinds of environmental issues like sewerage treatment plants, farmland and open space preservation. New Jersey has a commission to manage land use in special regions: Meadowlands, Pine Barrens and NJ Highlands.

The first point is that living in an area with preserved open space is a part of a standard of living.

So now New Jersey is burdened with debt from all of the environmental bond issues. There are public costs to manage open space. Now we pay high taxes. So our standard of living is lowered because taxes are high. Job formation is impeded because corporations will pause to consider the costs of operating here.

For Question #2; the hitch isn't only making money, but paying out money to preserve the environment.

For Question #3. The choice has already been made, we do have a tougher economy. The real question is: How much tougher is it envisioned to be for these questions.


I'm coming from a place and time when you could not even hang laundry on a cloths-line; it would be sooty. The Hudson River was grey and the ocean was polluted with sewerage

Now NewJersey is more forested than at any time since the Canal era. All kinds of wild animals have returned in my lifetime.

 

1. I do identify with my culture and my nation (Netherlands). Would be weird if I wouldn't because I was born and raised here. I was soaked in it so obviously it is part of my identity. Socioeconomic class is a different beast. I don't identify with any specific classes. If anything I would make a classification between Lord and Vassal and I would identify more with the latter.

2. Neither is important. Being a relativist I don't care much about money nor the environment. As a contemporary human being I care a lot more about the environment than I do about money.

3. No, not for that reason.

4. I don't give a shit about the US, so no.

5. Nothing.

6. Nothing.

 

Environment is way more important than making money. I am poor and I do not identify with much. I do know that at least in America or any other part of the the free world, opinions matter.

 

I've had plenty of experience with private schools. In Schenectady the Catholic schools are better than the public schools, but still have odd issues. Jane, my wife, was particularly shocked to find that the church hosts a basic casino on the feast day for their patron saint. Sure, the bets are limited to $2. It still provides a window into the souls of people who probably have a year-round problem. Upstate NY has the OTB places all over. I'm in Atlanta a lot and they have a bunch of faux casinos at convenience stores. And of course the lottery. There's nothing like getting stuck behind some loser who has a "system" for scratch-offs. The lie of course is that it's for the schools. "For the children" is the heart string they abuse. If it's so valuable, why are state scholarships being rationed tighter by the year?

Using property taxes to pay for schools was actually a good idea. In the 50s. We are not the same people now. I guess it's better than trying to compete with the general fund leeches. But I also see flaws. Property tax exemptions are handed out like candy to buy votes. It's so amazingly selfish and short sighted. It pulls resources away from the schools and transfers it to the retailers in town. With investment in the community's next generation faltering, what does anyone expect? Or is the plan to build a steady stock of Wal-Mart slaves?

On the issue of religious schools, I think we should stick to the constitution in the US and let everyone worship who and how they choose. BUT, I do not agree with the idea that religion be used as an excuse for essentially enslaving followers in one way or another. Violating individual rights as we see in the US charter (the only one I can speak to). Also, if this argument is to be used on the Catholics, it certainly should be used to measure the Muslims and the Jews. If not, then the whole issue should be tabled. Christians are easy to attack, they so rarely fight back!

 

"Inapplicable caveats aside, education is an absolute right, and anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to rob you blind, and is doing their damndest to keep you blind, that the robbery might continue (or, they are a total sucker, playing a type of sick collective lottery in which they sell their fellow man down the river for the "right" to extreme personal greed at the expense of their fellows, should they themselves ever happen into any good fortune)."

Haha yes, indeed. A bunch of programmable retards that don't even use punctuation tapping "this story likes me very much" while other people simply spin the boobs for crazy money they aren't worth. Such futures.

 

Were it not for my country, the USA, Adolph The Psychopath wouldn't have stopped with Ann Frank, in your country, the Netherlands. Stalin The Psychopath would have done similar. Try to appreciate us.

 

So he should "give a shit" about the US because of something that happened before most people on this forum were born? I'm curious how much you appreciate the Soviet Union considering an allied victory in WWII would have been impossible without them.

 

I think wealth [institutions and individuals] are becoming too powerful and in a world with globalised economic governance but no social globalised governance but instead a divided often squabbling multitude of nation states wealth could become even more dominant.

We could end up (in simplistic terms) with something like pre-revolutionary France – with a privileged and powerful ‘nobility’ and institutions [for example for the catholic church in PR-France substitute corporations] that are basically above the law and exempt from taxation

 

[SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]A little history[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Many Americans like to claim that without American troops the Nazis would not have been defeated - the thing is that the tide was turning before their involvement (Battle of Britain, Battle of Moscow) and there were a lot of pent up problems within the German system. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Try Adam Tooze’s excellent ‘The wages of Destruction’[/SIZE]
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wages-Destruction-Making-Breaking-Economy/dp/0713995661

[SIZE=11pt]I think that Hitler’s empire would have fallen even without US troops with the most likely outcome being a Europe much more dominated by the Soviet Union [the whole of Germany under soviet control, sympathetic communist governments in France, Italy and Greece, the Mediterranean very much a Soviet lake] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]But the thing is that we were allies it wasn’t about ‘saving’ us but because Germany had declared war on the USA, yes Germany declared war on the US not the other way around, it has been argued that if it hadn’t that the US might not have sent troops to Europe.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]I could go on my I think that enough. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]*[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]The problem with US policy after WWII was that it tried to bring about a kind of Pax Americana a American hegemony, which often caused more harm than good – they messed up at the Bretton Wood Conference in rejecting Keynes ideas in favour of an unsustainable system that has caused economic problems ever since.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]The anti-communist policy that dominated US government from Truman to the fall of the wall, often saw any left wing, progressive or reformist government as paramount to communism and lead to policy mistakes that were costly in lives and future effects – the Vietnam war – overthrowing the elected government in Iran – involvement in the Caribbean and Latin America - supporting the conservative elements against the soviets in Afghanistan – etc [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]*[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]There are many things to appreciate about America but where criticism is needed it is needed and has to be looked at and understood as a Brit I believe we have contributed to the world in many ways BUT I also have to acknowledge the many bad things Britain as a nation has done and the consequence those have had, even years later. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]History is there to teach not to be viewed through rose-tinted glasses. [/SIZE]

 

This is always such a non-argument.

Were it not for my country, the Netherlands, your country wouldn't even exist. Colonisation and such.
(See what I did?)

 

That the Left-Wing fascist USSR had greater losses in WWII is a bogus point that I have heard from its sympathizers. In reality, body count matters little when examining socialist crimes. Yes, socialism, as a collectivist way, is more likely to sacrifice people than a capitalist system. More prone to racism, also, as it must draw lines between the the included and the excluded.

I see idealists as focused on an unattainable future to the extent they have no historical perspective.

Lastly, yes, this new globalization is problematic. However, with much of the world patriarchal (great swaths want 'em preggo and barefoot); lacking in regard for free speech (look at Cuba); threatening to journalists (look at Russia and Vietnam); unaware of the importance of separation of church and state (look at England, Russia, Sweden, Denmark, etc. etc.) . . I would never trust a global institution. Besides, utopians won't run any global institution. Some Lenin-like sadist will scope out the potential for power, and hoodwink the idealists into helping him seize power.

 

The fact that the USSR was the primary contributor to the downfall of the third Reich is not based upon casualty numbers, but rather that up to 70% of the German Wehrmacht was focused on the Eastern Front and that the Germans had already begun to retreat six months before The Invasion of Normandy took place. The primary contribution of the United States in WWII was supplies to the allies and the defeat of Japan.

On the other hand I have heard of some Soviet tactics I thought were rather heartless to their own troops - then again what price was too high to avoid being conquered by Nazi Germany?

Anyway this isn't the thread to discuss WWII, nor do I think it appropriate to tell people to "appreciate" the United States because of an event that is now decades old and whose role in that event seems to have been somewhat inflated. Don't feel bad though, you're not the first American to have an exaggerated sense of US contribution in the European theater.

 

[SIZE=11pt]Eleven [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]There are many, many types of ‘socialism’ from hard-line Stalinism to forms of very liberal democracy and it’s often a matter of perspective. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]And ‘capitalist’ systems have and do sacrifice people in their millions through the effects of inequality, exploitation, and adherence to ‘markets’ that condemn many to deprivation, starvation and death. The big con trick of ‘capitalism’ has been to make those things ‘natural’ and anything different as ‘un-natural’.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]It’s an interesting subject but maybe for another thread. [/SIZE]

 

Lenin and the Bolsheviks gained power because of a revolution that went sour. It is one of the reasons I brought up pre-revolutionary France above.

The result of the inequalities in PRF brought about the French Revolution, which began with noble ideals and gained support from many progressive thinkers around the world especially in Britain and the US – then came the Terror and the wars and the Napoleonic dictatorship.

Revolutions can have unpredictable and in some cases very bloody outcomes, just look at the revolutions of the recent ‘Arab spring’.

What I’m pointing out is that it may be in the interests of everyone if the situation was managed before revolution seems to be the only option people have to bring about needed change. It seems to me that some type of global (and democratic) governance seems like the only way to manage this situation.

 

Group identity seem all the fashion these days. Would less factionalism be healthier?

...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


It is easy to identify with our rich and successful one percenters. They became successful by the ability to evoke identification and a type of fan worship.

Look at: Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Barrak Obama, Opara Winfrey, Mick Jagger, Robert Redford, and countless others.

. They have created a personal brand that attracts followers. We have nothing in common with these cultural roc stars.


Yet,? how does one connect with the bog trodders, the coolies, the campasinos, of the Third World ? On what basis will we "identify" with them ?

.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

If one is working in Commerce, its easy to identify with customers and suppliers in varied nations all around the world; Or Immigrants from all over who
have located to our home country and are participating in commerce.

Yet, Commerce has such a bad name in some quarters, so does this really count? as: "Identify" ?

How would a person find an identity with a far away person outside of said commerce?

 

Agreed..............pre-revolutionary France, fascinating.

 

People have every right to exist, to the fullest extent nature is willing to grant them one.

Governments have a privilege to exist, as long as they serve some useful good purpose for living organic people.

Economic interests have no legitimate rights at all, but may be tolerated, precisely as long as they can so conduct themselves, in such a manor, as to remain mostly harmless, to people, environments, or anything else.

Religious organizations have no other existence then the shared faith of their voluntary followers.

(obviously this is very different from currently dominant and backward headed perceptions)
(well not just perceptions, but priorities of how and why things are done)