Do You Think Jesus Really Ever Existed?

NoxiousGas · Nov 16, 2015

AbsolutHip said:

Okay, I may have overreached.

Present your evidence.
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http://www.hipforums.com/forum/topic/461341-why-does-israel-keep-making-peace-negotiations-with-terrorist-governments/page-2#entry7589952

NoxiousGas said:

Ok, at the risk of this just getting deleted and my possibly getting a "time-out" I'm gonna opt for the cut-n-paste presentation.
Orison, Balbus, give me a pass on this one and sorry for thread derailment.
This is just a smattering of things I came across after a very easy Google search.

I may elaborate on some things, but we shall see.

p.s. this info is freely available for anyone to research.

A Common Flood Story. Not just the Hebrews (Gen. 6–8), but Mesopotamians, Egyptians, and Greeks all report a flood in primordial times. A Sumerian king list from c. 2100 BC divides itself into two categories: those kings who ruled before a great flood and those who ruled after it. One of the earliest examples of Sumero-Akkadian-Babylonian literature, the Gilgamesh Epic, describes a great flood sent as punishment by the gods, with humanity saved only when the pious Utnapishtim (AKA, “the Mesopotamian Noah”) builds a ship and saves the animal world thereon. A later Greek counterpart, the story of Deucalion and Phyrra, tells of a couple who survived a great flood sent by an angry Zeus. Taking refuge atop Mount Parnassus (AKA, “the Greek Ararat”), they supposedly repopulated the earth by heaving stones behind them that sprang into human beings.

The Code of Hammurabi. This seven-foot black diorite stele, discovered at Susa and presently located in the Louvre museum, contains 282 engraved laws of Babylonian King Hammurabi (fl. 1750 BC). The common basis for this law code is the lex talionis (“the law of the tooth”), showing that there was a common Semitic law of retribution in the ancient Near East, which is clearly reflected in the Pentateuch. Exodus 21:23–25, for example, reads: “But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot…” (niv).

The Nuzi Tablets. The some 20,000 cuneiform clay tablets discovered at the ruins of Nuzi, east of the Tigris River and datable to c. 1500 BC, reveal institutions, practices, and customs remarkably congruent to those found in Genesis. These tablets include treaties, marriage arrangements, rules regarding inheritance, adoption, and the like.

The Existence of Hittites. Genesis 23 reports that Abraham buried Sarah in the Cave of Machpelah, which he purchased from Ephron the Hittite. Second Samuel 11 tells of David’s adultery with Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah the Hittite. A century ago the Hittites were unknown outside of the Old Testament, and critics claimed that they were a figment of biblical imagination. In 1906, however, archaeologists digging east of Ankara, Turkey, discovered the ruins of Hattusas, the ancient Hittite capital at what is today called Boghazkoy, as well as its vast collection of Hittite historical records, which showed an empire flourishing in the mid-second millennium BC. This critical challenge, among many others, was immediately proved worthless — a pattern that would often be repeated in the decades to come.

The Merneptah Stele. A seven-foot slab engraved with hieroglyphics, also called the Israel Stele, boasts of the Egyptian pharaoh’s conquest of Libyans and peoples in Palestine, including the Israelites: “Israel — his seed is not.” This is the earliest reference to Israel in nonbiblical sources and demonstrates that, as of c. 1230 BC, the Hebrews were already living in the Promised Land.

Biblical Cities Attested Archaeologically. In addition to Jericho, places such as Haran, Hazor, Dan, Megiddo, Shechem, Samaria, Shiloh, Gezer, Gibeah, Beth Shemesh, Beth Shean, Beersheba, Lachish, and many other urban sites have been excavated, quite apart from such larger and obvious locations as Jerusalem or Babylon. Such geographical markers are extremely significant in demonstrating that fact, not fantasy,is intended in the Old Testament historical narratives; otherwise, the specificity regarding these urban sites would have been replaced by “Once upon a time” narratives with only hazy geographical parameters, if any.
Israel’s enemies in the Hebrew Bible likewise are not contrived but solidly historical. Among the most dangerous of these were the Philistines, the people after whom Palestine itself would be named. Their earliest depiction is on the Temple of Rameses III at Thebes, c. 1150 BC, as “peoples of the sea” who invaded the Delta area and later the coastal plain of Canaan. The Pentapolis (five cities) they established — namely Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gaza, Gath, and Ekron — have all been excavated, at least in part, and some remain cities to this day. Such precise urban evidence measures favorably when compared with the geographical sites claimed in the holy books of other religious systems, which often have no basis whatever in reality.10

Shishak’s Invasion of Judah. First Kings 14 and 2 Chronicles 12 tell of Pharaoh Shishak’s conquest of Judah in the fifth year of the reign of King Rehoboam, the brainless son of Solomon, and how Solomon’s temple in Jerusalem was robbed of its treasures on that occasion. This victory is also commemorated in hieroglyphic wall carvings on the Temple of Amon at Thebes.

The Moabite Stone. Second Kings 3 reports that Mesha, the king of Moab, rebelled against the king of Israel following the death of Ahab. A three-foot stone slab, also called the Mesha Stele, confirms the revolt by claiming triumph over Ahab’s family, c. 850 BC, and that Israel had “perished forever.”

Obelisk of Shalmaneser III. In 2 Kings 9–10, Jehu is mentioned as King of Israel (841–814 BC). That the growing power of Assyria was already encroaching on the northern kings prior to their ultimate conquest in 722 BC is demonstrated by a six-and-a-half-foot black obelisk discovered in the ruins of the palace at Nimrud in 1846. On it, Jehu is shown kneeling before Shalmaneser III and offering tribute to the Assyrian king, the only relief we have to date of a Hebrew monarch.

Burial Plaque of King Uzziah. Down in Judah, King Uzziah ruled from 792 to 740 BC, a contemporary of Amos, Hosea, and Isaiah. Like Solomon, he began well and ended badly. In 2 Chronicles 26 his sin is recorded, which resulted in his being struck with leprosy later in life. When Uzziah died, he was interred in a “field of burial that belonged to the kings.” His stone burial plaque has been discovered on the Mount of Olives, and it reads: “Here, the bones of Uzziah, King of Judah, were brought. Do not open.”

Hezekiah’s Siloam Tunnel Inscription. King Hezekiah of Judah ruled from 721 to 686 BC. Fearing a siege by the Assyrian king, Sennacherib, Hezekiah preserved Jerusalem’s water supply by cutting a tunnel through 1,750 feet of solid rock from the Gihon Spring to the Pool of Siloam inside the city walls (2 Kings 20; 2 Chron. 32). At the Siloam end of the tunnel, an inscription, presently in the archaeological museum at Istanbul, Turkey, celebrates this remarkable accomplishment. The tunnel is probably the only biblical site that has not changed its appearance in 2,700 years.

The Sennacherib Prism. After having conquered the 10 northern tribes of Israel, the Assyrians moved southward to do the same to Judah (2 Kings 18–19). The prophet Isaiah, however, told Hezekiah that God would protect Judah and Jerusalem against Sennacherib (2 Chron. 32; Isa. 36–37). Assyrian records virtually confirm this. The cuneiform on a hexagonal, 15-inch baked clay prism found at the Assyrian capital of Nineveh describes Sennacherib’s invasion of Judah in 701 BC in which it claims that the Assyrian king shut Hezekiah inside Jerusalem “like a caged bird.” Like the biblical record, however, it does not state that he conquered Jerusalem, which the prism certainly would have done had this been the case. The Assyrians, in fact, bypassed Jerusalem on their way to Egypt, and the city would not fall until the time of Nebuchadnezzar and the Neo-Babylonians in 586 BC. Sennacherib himself returned to Nineveh where his own sons murdered him.

The Cylinder of Cyrus the Great. Second Chronicles 36:23 and Ezra 1 report that Cyrus the Great of Persia, after conquering Babylon, permitted Jews in the Babylonian Captivity to return to their homeland. Isaiah had even prophesied this (Isa. 44:28). This tolerant policy of the founder of the Persian Empire is borne out by the discovery of a nine-inch clay cylinder found at Babylon from the time of its conquest, 539 BC, which reports Cyrus’s victory and his subsequent policy of permitting Babylonian captives to return to their homes and even rebuild their temples.

Tel Dan (“David”) Stela
Few Biblical archaeology discoveries have attracted as much attention as the Tel Dan Stela—the ninth-century B.C. inscription that furnished the first historical evidence of King David outside the Bible. This in-depth chapter describes the historical moment when an excavation assistant stumbled upon the stela bearing the inscription in a newly excavated wall.

Yahweh and His Asherah”
A handful of painted sherds discovered in the eastern Sinai desert forever changed our perception of early Israelite religion. Upon the shattered fragments of a large eighth-century B.C. storage jar is an inscription that referred to “Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah.” Scholar Ze’ev Meshel explains how these painted pottery fragments provide a fresh perspective on the religious life of ancient Israel as well as archaeological evidence that Israelite religion—far from being the single monolithic Yahwistic faith depicted in the Bible—was practiced and understood in a variety of ways.

Noah’s Ark
Let’s begin with the intriguing account of Noah’s ark. In 1959, a Turkish airline pilot took stereo photos of a boat-shaped object on the top of Mount Ararat for the Geodetic Institute of Turkey. After careful study, the length of the remains of the boat shaped object was determined to be exactly 300 cubits: the stated length of Noah’s ark in the Book of Genesis (Genesis 6:15). The width was greater than the size recorded in the Bible; however, due to the age of the boat, expansion over time is naturally expected. Careful scientific examination found an organic fossilized antler, extinct rodent hair, organic fossilized animal droppings, and human hair inside the boat. It lies approximately 6300 ft. above sea level and is located over 200 miles from the nearest sea. The age of the boat is over 4400 years. The Turkish Government has officially dedicated the site as a national park declaring it to be the remains of Noah’s ark!1

Ebla Tablets
The Ebla tablets found by archaeologists in 1975 provide solid evidence about life in the ancient world. Ebla was a kingdom that included Syria/Damascus and South-East Turkey. The people of Ebla experienced cultural and commercial prominence in their time. They established state archives, built libraries, and recorded commercial contracts in written form. The kingdom of Ebla existed around 2500 BCE. Many scholars have doubted the accounts in the Torah because it was believed that writing did not exist in Moses’ time; and therefore, he could not have written those books. On that notion, they date the Torah to a much later time and do not credit Moses as the author. The discovery of the Ebla tablets has proven all those unbelieving scholars wrong. Also, the Creation account in Genesis 1 is considered by many to be a later writing, because the word ‘tehon’ (the deep) was used in the text. However, the discovery of tablets in the Eblaite Kingdom in the 1970’s shows the word was in use 800 years before the time of Moses.2
Additionally, the discovery of 20,000 cuneiform tablets and fragments mentioned the names of David (Da-u-dum), Abraham (Ab-ra-mu) and Ishmael (Ish-ma-il). The unearthing of the Ebla tablets in northern Syria in the 1970s, uncovered names of biblical patriarchs, and the discovery of ancient regions such as ‘Canaan,’ all legitimize the patriarchal accounts, proving them to be viable and genuine.3

The Hittites
The Hittite people, considered a biblical legend, have also moved from fiction to historical fact after records from the Ebla Kingdom and Cuneiform tablets discovered in Bogazkoy, Turkey mentioned their name.
Sargon, the Assyrian King, was discounted because his name did not appear outside the biblical account in Isaiah 20:1. It reads, “In the year that Tartan came to Ashdod, when Sargon the king of Assyria sent him, and fought against Ashdod and took it.” However, this all changed when archaeologists found Sargon’s palace in Khorsabad, Iraq. Recorded on the Palace walls was the event mentioned in Isaiah 20—Sargon’s capture of Ashdod. Also, steel fragmented tablets memorializing the victory were found at Ashdod itself.
According to recorded history, Nabonidus was the last Babylonian king. As a result Belshazzar of Daniel 5 was in doubt because there was no extra-biblical source to validate his existence. This position changed when Cuneiform tablets were recently found showing that Belshazzar was Nabonidus’s son, who served as coregent in Babylon.
Archaeologists also uncovered ossuaries from the first century that confirm the existence of additional biblical figures, further supporting the reliability of the Bible.4
Described below is a list of biblical figures that have been made known to us by secular ancient historical records:

Roman Emperors: Caesar Agustus, Tiberius, Claudius

Roman Governors: Pontius Pilate, Serguis Paulus, Gallio, Felix, Festus

Regional Rulers: Herod the Great, Archelaus, Herod Antipas, Philip,
Herod Agrippa I, Herod Agrippa II, Lysanias, Aretas IV

High Priests: Annas, Joseph Caiphas, Ananias

Prominent Biblical Figures: John the Baptist, and James the Just

Simon of Cyrene
In 1941, Archaeologists Eliezer L. Sukenic and Nahman Avidag of Jerusalem’s Hebrew University found the ossuary of Simon of Cyrene. There is no question about its authenticity. It was found with 10 others as an intact assemblage in a tomb chamber that survived for centuries untouched by tomb robbers. The blocking stone was still in place. This find was published in 1962. Many scholars who have nothing to gain conclude: the ossuary is that of Simone of Cyrene and one of the 10 others was his son, Alexander.

Jesus Christ
Presently, many biblical scholars reduce Jesus Christ to a mythical figure because they require evidence from external secular sources that He existed. Archaeology is providing this evidence as scientists continue to uncovered evidence of the communities and people mentioned during the biblical times of Christ. Amazingly, much of the evidence uncovered supporting the Bible is from secular sources; some of which are hostile to Christianity.
Flavius Josephus provides us information about ‘James the Just,’ the half brother of Jesus. In addition, he gives us details about James’ life as the first bishop of the Christian church and his death by stoning, executed by the Sanhedrin in 62 AD.
Josephus refers to Jesus twice in his writings. His second reference refers to James as “the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ.” He has a longer passage on Jesus in his reports on Pontius Pilate’s administration. For centuries, it was dismissed until the original wording was restored, as noted here:
At this time there was a wise man called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. Many people among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified, and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning who the prophets had reported wonders. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day” (Antiquities 20:200).
Critics had doubted the existence of Nazareth in Jesus’ day, until its name showed up in a first-century synagogue inscription at Caesarea. Augustus’ census edicts (this is linked with the Nativity account) are borne out by an inscription at Ankara, Turkey. In his famous accomplishment, the Roman emperor proudly claims to have taken a census three times and mandated that husbands had to register their families for the Roman census.

Herod, the Great
Herod, the Great ruled at the time Jesus was born. This is demonstrated by the numerous excavations of his massive public works in the Holy Land, including the Great Temple in Jerusalem. His son, Herod Antipas, ruled Galilee, which has been shown in similar digs at Sepphoris and Tiberias. Many of the sites during Jesus’ ministry such as Bethsaida, Chorazin, Capernau, Caesarea Philippi, Shechem, Bethany, and Jerusalem are currently in the process of excavation.
It is noteworthy that the correlation between biblical and non-biblical evidence regarding the historicity of Jesus is supported through recent archaeological discoveries. The remains of the synagogue at Capernaum, where Jesus taught, exist today below ruins of a 4th century synagogue. Peter’s house in Capernaum has been uncovered from underneath a 4th century Christian sanctuary.

Tower of Babel
Both Sumerian and Babylonian historical records report a time when all of humanity spoke the same language, until a temple tower was destroyed and language confused. This matches the account in Genesis 11:1-9 of the tower of Babel.

More than 50 Old Testament and about 27 New Testament characters are known from sources other than the Bible. Of these, archaeologists have discovered the likenesses of nearly 20.These likenesses include:
§ King Shishak of Egypt. 1 Kings 14:25-26 describes Shishak’s invasion of Judah and plundering Jerusalem and other cities. Archaeologists have confirmed this story. Shishak recorded his campaign on the south wall of the Great Temple of Amon at Karnak in Egypt. See image at: http://www.bible-history.com/archaeology/egypt/shishak-smiting-prisoners.html
§ King Jehu of Israel (2 Kings 9:1-10:36). Jehu ruled Israel for 28 years. Although the prophet Elisha anointed him as king to eliminate Baal worship in Israel, Jehu “was not careful to keep the law of the Lord” (2 Kings 10:31) and once his crusade to eliminate the family of Ahab was over, he turned back to his fathers’ evil ways. His is the only surviving likeness of a king of Israel or Judah. See image at: http://www.livius.org/io-iz/israel/kingdom.html
§ King Hazael of Aram (1 Kings 19:15, 17; 2 Kings 8:7-15, 28-29; 9:14-15; 10:32-33; 12:17-18; 13:3, 22, 24,25; Amos 1:4) Hazael was anointed by the prophet Elisha as king of Aram and ruled for 37 years. See image at: http://www.bible-history.com/archaeology/israel/2-hazael-king-of-syria-bb.html
§ King Tiglath-Pileser III of Assyria (2 Kings 15:29, 30; 1 Chronicles 5:26). The Bible reports that Tiglath-Pileser, also known as Pul, invaded Judah and took the people captive. Two inscriptions of Tiglath-Pileser confirm biblical accounts of his invasion of Judah.
§ “Pekah their king they had overthrown, I placed Hoshea over them. From him I received 10 talents of gold and 1000 talents of silver.” (See 2 Kings 15:30) Five Hebrew kings, Uzziah, Ahaz, Menahem, Pekah and Hoshea, are mentioned in Tiglath’s inscriptions.
§ “The people of the land of Omri I deported to Assyria, with their property.” (See 2 Kings 15:29) See image at: http://www.bible-history.com/archaeology/assyria/Tiglath-Pileser-III.html
§ King Sargon II of Assyria (Isaiah 20:1). No other historical record mentions the name of King Sargon. Until French archaeologist Paul Emil Botta discovered the ruins of his palace in 1843, Sargon was considered a myth. Huge winged bulls, mythical creatures with a human head, bull’s body and angel’s or bird’s wings, thought to have power to protect the palace from evil spirits, stood on either side of the palace entrances. These bulls were more than 14 feet tall and weighed more than 16 tons. An inscription on a clay tablet found among the ruins said, “In my first year I captured Samaria. I took captive 27,290 people. People of other lands, who never paid tribute, I settled in Samaria.” See image at: http://www.ancientreplicas.com/sargon-and-general.html See image of the winged bull at: http://www.bible-history.com/archaeology/assyria/winged-bull-2-sided.html
§ King Sennacherib of Assyria (2 Kings 18:13-19:37) A wealthy Assyrian king, when Sennacherib invaded Jerusalem, “the angel of the Lord” killed 185,000 of his men (2 Kings 19:30). After retreating to Nineveh, Sennacherib was killed by his sons. See image at: http://knp.prs.heacademy.ac.uk/images/essentials/esarhaddon/bm-ane-124911-large.jpg and http://knp.prs.heacademy.ac.uk/essentials/assyrianempire/ and http://www.bible-history.com/sketches/ancient/sennacherib-khorsabad.html
§ King Tirhakah of Egypt (2 Kings 19:9) Also known as Taharqa, Taharka and Manetho’s Tarakos. Tirhakah reigned in Egypt from 690 to 664 B.C. He is identified by scholars with the Ethiopian king who waged war Sennacherib during King Hezekiah’s reign in Judah. Esarhaddon, son of Sennacherib, later defeated Tirhakah. See images at: http://wysinger.homestead.com/kingtaharqa.html
§ King Esarhaddon of Assyria (2 Kings 19:37). Less well-known than his father Sennacherib or his son Assurbanipal, Esarhaddon usurped his brother’s right to the thrown of Assyria. Esarhaddon’s rule had a sweeping historical influence on the region. His was a fierce but efficient rule, despite the fact that he suffered from poor health. See image at: http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_image.aspx?image=ps332860.jpg&retpage=19029 (image shows Esarhaddon worshiping the god Aššur, commemorating his rebuilding of Babylon)
§ King Merodach-baladan of Babylon (2 Kings 20:12-19). A Chaldean who seized the Babylonian throne and was later overthrown by Sargon.
§ King Xerxes I of Persia (Esther; Ezra 4:6) Identified by most as the Persian king Ahasuerus in the story of Esther, he reigned from 485 to 465 B.C.
§ King Darius I of Persia (Ezra 4:24-6:15; Haggai 1:1, 15) The king who decreed that the Jews were to return home from exile and rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. See image at: http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/History/DariusIOfPersia.html. However, it appears to be the same image the websites listed above say is Xerxes. Scroll down and there’s another image of Darius and Xerxes. They do look alike.
§ Roman emperor Augustus (Luke 2:1). Augustus ruled at the time of Christ’s birth. It was his census decree that brought Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem, where Jesus was born. Numerous images can be found at: http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*&q=%EF%82%A7%09Roman+emperor+Augustus+
§ Roman emperor Tiberius (Matthew 22:17, 21; Mark 12:14-17; Luke 3:1; 20:22-25; 23:2; John 19:12,15). Tiberius reigned at the time of Christ’s death. Numerous images can be found at: http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*&q=Roman+emperor+Tiberius+
§ Roman emperor Claudius (Acts 11:28; 18:2) Claudius reigned from A.D. 41 to 54. Numerous images can be found at: http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3A*&q=Roman+emperor+Claudius
§ King Herod Agrippa I of Judea (Acts 12:1-23; 23:35) Herod Agrippa reigned from A.D. 37 to 44. He had good connections with Rome.
§ King Aretas IV of the Nabateans (2 Corinthians 11:32) Aretas’s daughter married Herod Antipas but returned home when Antipas took Herodias as his wife—an event that led to John the Baptist’s beheading. Aretas then declared war on Antipas, but Antipas appealed to Tiberius of Rome who sent the governor of Syria to attack Aretas.
§ Roman emperor Nero, also known as Caesar (Acts 25:11,12,21; 26:32; 28:19; Philippians 4:22) Nero is known for his persecution of Christians and the great fire that destroyed much of Rome during his reign, which he blamed on the Christians.

A number of structures described in the Bible have also been found, including:
§ The palace at Jericho where Eglon, king of Moab, was assassinated by Ehud (Judges 3:15-30) See image at: http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2007/05/david-rohls-revised-egyptian-chronology-a-view-from-palestine.aspx
§ The east gate of Shechem where Gaal and Zebul watched the forces of Abimelech approach the city (Judges 9:34-38) See image at: http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2006/02/Abimelech-at-Shechem.aspx
§ The Temple of Baal/El-Berith in Shechem, where funds were obtained to finance Abimelech's kingship, and where the citizens of Shechem took refuge when Abimelech attacked the city (Judges 9:4, 46-49)
§ The pool of Gibeon where the forces of David and Ishbosheth fought during the struggle for the kingship of Israel (2 Samuel 2:12-32)
§ The Pool of Heshbon, which the eyes of the Shulammite woman were likened to (Song of Songs 7:4)
§ The royal palace at Samaria where the kings of Israel lived (1 Kings 20:43; 21:1, 2; 22:39; 2 Kings 1:2; 15:25)
§ The Pool of Samaria where King Ahab's chariot was washed after his death (1 Kings 22:29-38)
§ The water tunnel beneath Jerusalem dug by King Hezekiah to provide water during the Assyrian siege (2 Kings 20:20; 2 Chronicles 32:30)
§ The royal palace in Babylon where King Belshazzar held the feast and Daniel interpreted the handwriting on the wall (Daniel 5)
§ The royal palace in Susa where Esther was queen of the Persian king Xerxes (Esther 1:2; 2:3, 5, 9, 16)
§ The royal gate at Susa where Mordecai, Esther's cousin, sat (Esther 2:19, 21; 3:2, 3; 4:2; 5:9, 13; 6:10, 12)
§ The Square in front of the royal gate at Susa where Mordecai met with Halthach, Xerxes' eunuch (Esther 4:6)
§ The foundation of the synagogue at Capernaum where Jesus cured a man with an unclean spirit (Mark 1:21-28) and delivered the sermon on the bread of life (John 6:25-59)
§ The house of Peter at Capernaum where Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law and others (Matthew 8:14-16)
§ Jacob's well where Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman (John 4)
§ The Pool of Bethesda in Jerusalem, where Jesus healed a crippled man (John 5:1-14)
§ The Pool of Siloam in Jerusalem, where Jesus healed a blind man (John 9:1-4)
§ The tribunal at Corinth where Paul was tried (Acts 18:12-17)
§ The theater at Ephesus where the riot of silversmiths occurred (Acts 19:29
§ Herod's palace at Caesarea where Paul was kept under guard (Acts 23:33-35)

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2014/04/09/Ai-and-Old-Testament-Chronology-Who-Cares.aspx
http://www.equip.org/articles/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/#christian-books-1
http://biblicalstudies.info/top10/schoville.htm
https://answersingenesis.org/archaeology/does-archaeology-support-the-bible/
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/free-ebooks/ten-top-biblical-archaeology-discoveries/
http://www.bibleuniverse.com/articles/bible-universe-blog/articletype/articleview/articleid/1584/pageid/1718
http://www.prevailmagazine.org/how-archaeology-proves-the-bible/
http://www.timesofisrael.com/3000-year-old-artifacts-fuel-biblical-archaeology-debate/
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/news/top-10-archaeological-finds-in-2013/
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/category/news/
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/news/top-20-biblical-archaeology-events-and-discoveries-of-2012/
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/december-web-only/biblical-archaeologys-top-ten-discoveries-of-2013.html?paging=off
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/article7.htm

Will this suffice to establish the Bible as a legitimate source of reliable and relatively accurate historical information, or shall we proceed further?
:mickey:
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sorry about the messed up formatting, that happened when the site was changed over.

Okiefreak · Nov 16, 2015

Irminsul said:

Well Moses for example:

Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Moses
Mobile-friendly - Moses also appears in other religious texts such as the Mishnah (c. 200 CE), Midrash (200–1200 CE), and the Qur'an.

He's also in Jewish religions and was also spoken about in Greek religions.
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Moses was accepted by Jews as one of their greatest prophets and folk heroes, so it's not surprising he'd appear in the Mishnah and Midrash, as well as the Torah. The Qur'an was built on Jewish and Christian foundations, so its not surprising Moses--and Jesus (issa)--appear as great prophets in the Qur'an.

NoxiousGas · Nov 16, 2015

AbsolutHip said:

You, my friend, are the most aware person in this thread so far...
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Pressed Rat the most aware person????

LOL, your new here, aren't you

Okiefreak · Nov 16, 2015

AbsolutHip said:

Okay, I may have overreached.

Present your evidence.
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Well you made quite a bold and extraordinary assertion, so it should be up to you to prove it. But the evidence lies in the Greek manuscripts. And if you are including the Tanakh, we have those manuscripts, as well, including some from the Dead Sea Scrolls. All the characters are there.

Okiefreak · Nov 16, 2015

BlackBillBlake said:

What about images produced prior to the renaissance? Byzantine for example, or mediaeval? I'm certain that enormous numbers of images produced both before the time of Borgia, and later on bear no resemblance at all.

Also, he's shown differently by different artists. Anybody looking at a picture of Jesus would be rather foolish to assume he actually looked as depicted in the picture.

Some occultists such as Crowley, claim that Jesus is identical with the Egyptian god Osiris, who goes back a lot further than the 3rd c.
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And then there are those who say he's modeled after Horus, Mithra, Tammuz, Adonis, Heracles (Hercules), Dionysus, Appolonius of Tyana ,etc.--virtually every pagan god and his dog. Or maybe they were modeled after him. The hard problem for mythicists is showing that the relevant details about these figures antedated Jesus, and that the pagans weren't, in fact, the copycats.

BlackBillBlake · Nov 16, 2015

An instantly recognizable image from c.600 AD.

BlackBillBlake · Nov 16, 2015

Okiefreak said:

And then there are those who say he's modeled after Horus, Mithra, Adonis, Heracles (Hercules), Dionysus, Appolonius of Tyana ,etc.--virtually every pagan god and his dog.
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I don't buy into any of that. I was only responding to the post about Serapis by indicating that, as you say, many such theories exist.

AbsolutHip · Nov 16, 2015

NoxiousGas said:

Pressed Rat the most aware person????

LOL, your new here, aren't you
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...JUST on this subject.

BlackBillBlake said:

What about images produced prior to the renaissance? Byzantine for example, or mediaeval? I'm certain that enormous numbers of images produced both before the time of Borgia, and later on bear no resemblance at all.

Also, he's shown differently by different artists. Anybody looking at a picture of Jesus would be rather foolish to assume he actually looked as depicted in the picture.

Some occultists such as Crowley, claim that Jesus is identical with the Egyptian god Osiris, who goes back a lot further than the 3rd c.
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I completely agree. I am speaking towards what american westerners are familiar with or what I see in people's homes when I visit.

Eerily · Nov 16, 2015

Eerily

Create a man with nothing to fear, and an immense amount of self-worth to inspire those many, many people with plenty to fear, but nearly no self-worth to do anything but what it takes to find self-worth and what you have is a human population successfully made devoid of all worth.

The question is why would anyone want to do that. Simply, because people with inferiority issues in the past wished to bring the human species down with it rather to raise themselves up. Basically, resentful people - Paul for one.

Now here's the brilliance of it. Who would think that people with such sickly mentalities would have thought up such a healthful person?

The answer: Not many. Which is why we ask these questions about Jesus' origins with such naivety, admitted naivety, but naivety nonetheless.
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AbsolutHip

This is an awesome breakdown and analogy. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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I'm not sure what you mean by analogy. Also, I personally don't think power corrupts. People with positions that're considered powerful, often lose their grounding, but, the very fact that their grounding was so tentative shows that they actually weren't that powerful at all, rather just somewhat of a puppet of other people or general cultural forces. Someone like Paul was actually powerful, but was corrupt before he obtained the height of his power.

Okiefreak · Nov 16, 2015

NoxiousGas said:

http://www.hipforums.com/forum/topic/461341-why-does-israel-keep-making-peace-negotiations-with-terrorist-governments/page-2#entry7589952

sorry about the messed up formatting, that happened when the site was changed over.
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This should keep us going until at least the rest of the year (but maybe on a different thread?). Re Noah's Ark, some additional information, pro and con.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100428-noahs-ark-found-in-turkey-science-religion-culture/
http://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=36315
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/evidence-suggests-biblical-great-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533 http://biblicalgeology.net/blog/12-reasons-robert-ballard-has-not-discovered-noahs-flood/

I can relocate this if necessary, and if anyone is interested.

AbsolutHip · Nov 16, 2015

Okiefreak said:

Well you made quite a bold and extraordinary assertion, so it should be up to you to prove it. But the evidence lies in the Greek manuscripts. And if you are including the Tanakh, we have those manuscripts, as well, including some from the Dead Sea Scrolls. All the characters are there.
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Okay, I understand what you are saying.

There is nothing outside of the Abrahamic religions and/or cultures that makes mention of characters in detail.

I mean, as adults, we have to be serious here. Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Moses, Noah, Lot, Saul, David, any character in the Old Testament, led very active exciting lives.

No buildings, monuments, or natural sights are dedicated to these people. This includes the first created people, the wisest man in history, a great king who is supposedly the predecesor to the son of GOD, and this is just to name a few. Nada nothing.

Look at Egyptian history. You have tombs, bodies, artifacts, drawings evidence...and this stuff happened THOUSANDS of years before the introduction of "christ."

George Washington is on the money and I can go to his house in Mt. Vernon. Abraham Lincoln is on the money and I can go to his monument in D.C. Benjamin Franklin is confirmed by multiple eye witnesses. Daniel Boone. Davey Crockett. All of these people had tall tales told about them, but they still existed and it can be verified.

None of them turned water into wine. None of them healed people from lepresy, made the blind see, fed 5000 people with a value meal from Captain D's, or raised Lazarus from the dead, but they are celebrated and revered.

Trust me, if jesus was real and his accomplishments were real, there would be shrines/monuments to this individual WORLDWIDE.

Just me taking a step back and looking at the claims and then the results.

Mr.Writer · Nov 16, 2015

Those arguing that the bible does have elements of historicity in it, need to remember that it's really easy to take a work of fiction, and insert certain known figures into it, and then pass it off as non-fiction, by pointing to the ocassional reference to a real person, and saying "Aha, there, you see, this work is actually historically accurate and worth taking seriously".

The times the bible contains who we think are real people do not get more points than the times it makes bewildering and outlandish claims, or claims we cannot verify or go further with. They are weighed evenly.

ChinaCatSunflower02 · Nov 16, 2015

And so why wouldn't Buddhism also not be legitimate, if all the stories and tales that stem from it you also don't believe in? Please explain why Buddhism is any different than Christianity. Buddhism IS based on The Buddha's existence and yet his existence is debated.

Mr.Writer said:

Those arguing that the bible does have elements of historicity in it, need to remember that it's really easy to take a work of fiction, and insert certain known figures into it, and then pass it off as non-fiction, by pointing to the ocassional reference to a real person, and saying "Aha, there, you see, this work is actually historically accurate and worth taking seriously".

The times the bible contains who we think are real people do not get more points than the times it makes bewildering and outlandish claims, or claims we cannot verify or go further with. They are weighed evenly.
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ChinaCatSunflower02 · Nov 16, 2015

Really?

Brazil http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/O_Cristo_Redentor.JPG&imgrefurl=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_the_Redeemer_(statue)&h=3000&w=4000&tbnid=F_qpF2BAzl4R8M:&tbnh=160&tbnw=213&usg=__5YOTsCD3OE9YcERRNcPH7UzMICM=&docid=pYOyXARWWo9IBM&itg=1

Spain https://www.google.com/search?q=statues+of+christ&rlz=1C1KMZB_enUS575US575&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=623&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI0IrIs7eWyQIVU9djCh1_mghG&dpr=1#imgrc=atjtVnpYOWPFtM%3A

and many others http://www.kuriositas.com/2013/02/the-tallest-statues-of-jesus-christ-in.html

Trust me, if jesus was real and his accomplishments were real, there would be shrines/monuments to this individual WORLDWIDE.

Yes, there is.

AbsolutHip said:

No buildings, monuments, or natural sights are dedicated to these people. This includes the first created people, the wisest man in history, a great king who is supposedly the predecesor to the son of GOD, and this is just to name a few. Nada nothing.
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Irminsul · Nov 16, 2015

Gilgamesh is also another character found in the bible and Sumerian texts.

Okiefreak · Nov 16, 2015

AbsolutHip said:

Okay, I understand what you are saying.

There is nothing outside of the Abrahamic religions and/or cultures that makes mention of characters in detail.

I mean, as adults, we have to be serious here. Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Moses, Noah, Lot, Saul, David, any character in the Old Testament, led very active exciting lives.
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As adults, I think we can write off Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Noah, and Lot as myths designed to explain human origins. I'd be as surprised to find evidence of their existence as to find unicorn bones. There is some evidence that David existed--the Tel Dan inscription and the Mesha stele,the Soshenq relier, a seal dating to the mid-9th century B.B.E.and the discovery of the city of Khirbet Qeiyafa from the Davidic era . It's unlikely that David was a powerful king of a united Judea and Samaria, as the Bible suggests, but he probably presided over a small tribal kingdom. Buildings at the tenth-century B.C.E. cities of Hazor, Megiddo, and Gezer indicate the existence of a central government that planned and executed such projects during the time of Solomon. There's no evidence of Moses outside the Torah. He may be historical fiction.

Okiefreak · Nov 16, 2015

Irminsul said:

Gilgamesh is also another character found in the bible and Sumerian texts.
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Only in the Bible, he's called Noah.

Okiefreak · Nov 16, 2015

AbsolutHip said:

Look at Egyptian history. You have tombs, bodies, artifacts, drawings evidence...and this stuff happened THOUSANDS of years before the introduction of "christ."
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Egypt was one of the great empires of the world at the time. The first indication that Israel existed is in the Merneptah stele of Egypt in the 13th centruy B.C. E. Israel was a comparatively backward tribal state culturally close to the Canaanite kingdoms which were vassals of Egypt. Your point is obscure.

Okiefreak · Nov 16, 2015

AbsolutHip said:

George Washington is on the money and I can go to his house in Mt. Vernon. Abraham Lincoln is on the money and I can go to his monument in D.C. Benjamin Franklin is confirmed by multiple eye witnesses. Daniel Boone. Davey Crockett. All of these people had tall tales told about them, but they still existed and it can be verified.

None of them turned water into wine. None of them healed people from lepresy, made the blind see, fed 5000 people with a value meal from Captain D's, or raised Lazarus from the dead, but they are celebrated and revered.

Trust me, if jesus was real and his accomplishments were real, there would be shrines/monuments to this individual WORLDWIDE.

Just me taking a step back and looking at the claims and then the results.
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George Washington was a military hero and President of a country over eighteen hundred years after the birth of Jesus. As head of government, he had his face on coins and public records. Not only that, but the printing press had been invented, so he had the advantage of mass communication. He simply isn't comparable in any way to Jesus. Likewise, Lincoln was head of a government, which is why he's on the money. Daniel Boone and Davey Crockett also had the advantage of living in an age when mass communications had been developed. Boone was a Viriginia assemblyman, prominent in state politics. Davey Crockett served in the U.S House of Representatives. Jesus, on the other hand, was a peasant preacher from a backwater Roman province before there was such a thing as professional history. It shouldn't be surprising that we don't have the same level of evidence for him. As for all those miraculous accomplishments, the faith healings might have happened, since we have faith healers today who seem to be effective with cases of hysteric and psychosomatic illnesses. I don't believe in miracles, so I think those accomplishments probably didn't happen. Still, the basic idea of an apocalyptic preacher who got on the wrong side of the Temple establishment, got himself crucified and became a legend among his followers is not implausible, and I've given reasons earlier why I believe he actually existed.

Mr.Writer · Nov 17, 2015

ChinaCatSunflower02 said:

And so why wouldn't Buddhism also not be legitimate, if all the stories and tales that stem from it you also don't believe in? Please explain why Buddhism is any different than Christianity. Buddhism IS based on The Buddha's existence and yet his existence is debated.
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A religious version of buddhism would be based on the buddhas existence in exactly the same way, yes. Many buddhists are interested in the methods of mental discipline and inquiry as well as the philosophical and social merits of an existence which strives towards understanding of say, the four noble truths and the eightfold path.

Buddha never said "no one gets to the father but through me".

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