After the eighth school shooting in seven weeks – some gun control proposals

Yeah, but you really seem to be trying to give the impression that without that godawful pistol grip, a mass shooter would miss a lot of his intended victims. Perhaps you should look into the kick from an AR-15 rifle; perhaps watch some videos.

 

No, it wasn't that. It was your first post in this thread:

"Got to wonder if some of them are on a payroll."

Challenging the popular idea that pistol grips increase the deadliness of a rifle does not indicate that the challenger is on a payroll.

 

I didn't say it did. I made a general statement and I purposefully said 'some', at which point you became defensive despite the fact I never mentioned you specifically. Which is odd.

 

I didn't mention pistol grips, the question simply referenced AR 15s. I mean in certain cases they were used and did in fact cause a substantial loss of human life. A weapon having a pistol grip or not is only one small detail of the overall picture. So what's your point?

 

A general statement, eh? Meagain had a problem with pistol grips on rifles. Toggle was criticized for recycling all the bad arguments. However, the argument against banning pistol grips is not a bad argument. But you decided to enter the discussion anyway by way of accusing those with valid arguments as being on a payroll. So you really didn't discuss anything. You simply expressed your paranoid suspicions about people who express their arguments.

Oh, so who were you accusing of being on a payroll?

 

Yes, a general statement in regards to so many of the arguments used by gun advocates being recycled over and over again while ignoring the criticisms against them. I didn't quote Toggle. I didn't quote you. Instead of inferring perhaps you might read my post again a bit more objectively and less personally; unless of course you have a good reason to take it personally in which case, well... I rest my case.

 

People are opposing AR-15s solely because they have pistol grips.

If there is a different feature of AR-15s that you want to claim makes them unacceptable, feel free to explain your position.

No more loss of life than would have happened if these people were killed with a gun that didn't have a pistol grip.

Not when it is the sole reason behind people's objections to that weapon.

I was pointing out that your statement that the AR-15 was the cause of this damage, is untrue.

 

That is not the sole reason. It might be Meagain's sole reason, I don't know. I think he is saying it's one reason it may make it more dangerous... I highly doubt he thinks it is the only reason it is dangerous. I couldn't say for sure, I wasn't the one making that argument.

Yet that was the gun used... So it was the cause. The AR 15 and pistol grips, again, is one small piece of the puzzle. I'm sure everyone in this discussion interested in gun control believes it needs to be more comprehensive than just focusing on pistol grips and the AR 15.

 

Oh I'm open to your criticisms of pistol grips. Or do you think the proposal to ban them is foolish?

You didn't quote anyone when you accused "some of us" of being on a payroll. So you were basically taking potshots from the bushes. Obviously you did that because you took issue with something someone said, but didn't know how to address it. So who was it that you think is on a payroll? Don't worry, I don't think anyone will take you seriously enough to actually take it personally.

 

Gee, wasn't the damage in all the other shootings caused by the guns used in them?

 

Do you have any arguments as to why the AR-15 should be regarded as any more dangerous than any other semi-auto or lever-action rifle that takes detachable magazines?

Not when there is nothing about the AR-15 that made the shooting any deadlier than any other semi-auto or lever-action rifle that takes detachable magazines.

It could only be the cause if it was more deadly than other guns that could have been used. Otherwise, it is just an ordinary gun that just happened to be used that time around.

To be a piece of the puzzle there would have to be a reason why the AR-15 is deadlier than any other semi-auto or lever-action rifle that takes detachable magazines.

I'm not forcing any gun control advocate to focus on the AR-15 and pistol grips. They are doing so by their own choice.

 

We desperately need to immediately ban- All Guns, Knives (kitchen ones too). Rocks (over 1 1/2 in. diameter and larger), and most of all, Pressure Cookers. Then we will have world peace.

 

What if we applied your logic to Mexicans or Muslims? OK there are some bad ones who misuse the system but can we punish all the law abiding ones who follow American law? We can't assume they are all bad. What if we applied the logic of "laws don't stop criminals firm using guns" to drugs. We have laws on drugs even though people break them. But the gun owner seems to apply this logic only to guns and not to these other areas. We want a wall because all Mexicans are bad yet we can't have a law on some guns?

I am not in favor of destroying all of American gun culture. The gun owners does make some logical points at times. But there is something special about the Ar-15 to gun owners. Since according to them there are dozens of guns who do the same thing including ones they are not even labeled assault riffles why is this one so special? Assault riffle is a term made up to disarm you right?

So who cares use a gun that is not one. I've shot many guns and yeah they all kill a man so in a way that is correct. The gun owner could throw the gun hater a bone and make an Ar-15 illegal or harder to get. Doing so could be cited for decades after as reasonable gun restrictions. But the gun owner does not because the Ar-15 has special uses in combat not found in many other guns and that is their ultimate interest in them.

The most important reason for having a gun is the day when the goverment will fight you so you need a gun worthy of that day. A shotgun will not do the job because a Marine will have a M-16. The Ar-15 is a fantastic gun legal under current laws that can be made into more of a gun. I can make it fire faster, I can put sights on it so I can see 100 yards away, all sort of of things like that.

So instead the debate is always about all guns or no guns with no gray area. Show me the data on law abiding gun owners breaking the law because what you want is to let the goverment oppress you. It does not allow rational debate.The gun owner hopes the anti-gun person does not understand guns in the same way. But the public focus on the Ar-15 because they now know as well as the gun owner the real reason for owning one. It would be much harder to make the argument flat out that you need it for war. Many gun people do and it's legal but I think they know it's not the best argument for their movement. It's better to talk about more every day uses for the gun.

So yes I will admit there is all kinds of data to show that many gun owners do not commit crimes. But the argument you are making looks illogical to many Americans now., The issue is not you not breaking the law. The issue is the gun owner supporting a culture of paranoia and danger. Your freedoms are a mass shooter's freedom's as well. You don't want gun ID"s or any goverment in your business profiling you as a gun owner or saying you can not have one. That's why many of these shooters are able to get guns. Even though medical professionals and family see something wrong they have not committed a crime YET.

The NRA and gun owners fight for this all the time. None of your damn business why I want it why you care? You may use rights it in a different way then a 19 year old in Florida and Americans are not comfortable with this contestant militia talk espeicly when they believe you will kill them as well for not owning 10 guns like you do. I believe this is why the Ar-15 and gun owners as whole are targeted even though they are not pulling the trigger. When gun owners understand this they will make more progress in persevering the second amercement., But they have to accept some sort of compromise with people who don't own guns without it being a Communist plot.

 

I'm fine with applying it to other areas. "That only the individual who commits a crime should be punished for it" is the bedrock of any civilized justice system.

I don't really care about the wall personally. But I don't think wall advocates view the wall as punishment or think that all Mexicans are bad.

Because people are trying to ban it without justification.

Having our rights violated is not acceptable.

What are these supposed uses?

Scopes are pretty common for any rifle.

What ability does the AR-15 have to be made to fire faster that could not be equally applied to any other semi-auto that accepts detachable magazines?

I can't help that the gun control people always demand an all-or-nothing battle over pistol grips. But since that path always leads to total victory by the NRA I don't object too much.

If I thought that pointing out the futility of their goals would lead to gun control people focusing on more realistic goals, I'd probably even stop pointing it out to them. They really do so much to undermine themselves and help the NRA win.

While the NRA is not a fan of "red flag" legislation, many gun rights advocates actually support it so long as due process is respected.

Probably the biggest reason why we won't see such legislation pass is because the gun control people are going to insist on exhausting themselves on an all-or-nothing battle over pistol grips again instead of fighting for other things.

We're achieving 100% victory presently. What kind of progress do you think we are lacking?

If "compromise" means "let them ban pistol grips without justification" then no we don't need to accept such a compromise. We can just continue to defeat them across the board as we always do.

 

I've already explained why I made the post earlier in this thread. Re-read it.

Clearly you take me seriously enough to take it personally because you've taken a general statement I made and have been posting about it ever since.

 

No, I'm undecided. I'm a firm believer in comprehensive gun control reform but there are many particulars I am educating myself on before forming an opinion. This is the main reason I visit these forums - to learn both sides of an issue as arguments unfold.

I tend to believe it is the cause by nature of it being an assault rifle. As I indicated, pistol grips were not an argument I made.

Fair enough, but I am not one of the folks doing so.

 

Yes, you're catching on now.